Why work for nothing?

I'm going to take your advice Alan and ask for the minimum next time. My friend who's a sound recordist often gets contacted by student/low budget filmmakers who ask her to work for nothing. She always tells them she can't as it's her living and it's amazing, she says, that they manage to get some money from somewhere to pay her. Perhaps I'll take a leaf out of her book and see what happens. There are a couple of filmmakers (students) who I've worked for for nothing (well, for expenses and board) who I think will go far - they were both really professional and great to be with so there are some silver linings.

• 17 years ago
• 21

I think if we all stopped doing unpaid work then the theatre scene in London would consist of nothing but the west end. I totally agree with you all in principal but there is no money in Theatre. It is pretty much impossible to put on a play, pay everyone and break even. And as for TV there really isn't any work as everything is reality shows now!!! Let's hope the bubble bursts on that one soon. I think just like at drama school where you do plays to gain experience and improve, we can do student film projects to gain screen confidence. Think of it as a free workshop?

• 17 years ago
• 22

My goodness - I'm gone for a day and the can is opened and worms are everywhere...

Everyone has a valid point to be honest.

I believe that as an actor I am one in a long, long chain that puts a production together. I am happy to do the odd thing for free or for showreel material - as long as I'm not the only one 'doing' for free.

I did additional scenes for a film recently where the director/writer sold his house to pay for it...taking that into consideration, I felt honoured to be a part of his life long dream and if he'd have offered me money, I would not have taken it. I had a blast and if it does well, bonus for me.

I also work for a theatre company as a volunteer coaching and running workshops for adults with special needs - amazing.

I'm at the stage where I am quite picky about work and if I like the sound of it I'll do it, if not I won't, regardless of payment.

Obviously we are all holding out for the Spielberg offer but until then, I do what makes me happy and as long as that is performing and teaching, job done!

As ever, fab chat on the green room.

PS - I love Maggie Thatcher

• 17 years ago
• 23

Very brave statement, that, from Helen! A Scot who loves Maggie Thatcher! Wow!
We have a great relationship with our University film school. They go directly to the Branch Secretary for actors for their films with real specifications and she puts it out to our members first. If no-one is available or wants to do it it then goes on to adverts.
In return we get to use their facilities like rooms and editing for showreels. A great bit of 'give and take'!
However commercial companies who expect us to work for nothing and can still afford to fund their jollies to Cannes film Festival should always be named and shamed in my book.
Theatre is a different matter though. It needs a much more in depth view I believe.

• 17 years ago
• 24

I'm a very brave individual - I have been inundated with PM's though!

Being Scottish, the notion of doing anything for free goes against the grain...but hey ho...you get out what you put in. Each to his own and all that.

BRING BACK MAGGIE, BRING BACK MAGGIE etc, etc...

• 17 years ago
• 25

I will never work for free. OK, sometimes I'll work for PEANUTS if it's a student thing or a low budget that I might happen to like the smell of, but it's more of a principle thing with me. I just will not ever work for free. I wish all actors would be that way. I've never seen so many unpaid jobs out there as I have this past year and you know it will only get worse if it's that easy to find people who will work for nothing. I'm not saying to be rude and demand extortionate pay for your "art", but anything more than free is a fair enough place to start. You'd be surprised how often at least a little bit of dosh can be found if they really want you.

I'm getting increasingly worried about the ever increasing number of freebies. Let's face it, nobody REALLY gives a rat's ass how many crap student films or low budget things you've done, they just want to know if you can do THEIR thing worth a damn. Lengthy CV's mean absolutely nowt in the great scream of things. The bottom line should be: work = pay (of some sort).

But then it was exactly the same way when I was in music and it got so miserable that eventually you saw PAY TO PLAY venues crop up everywhere. Shortly after that live music in general died a miserable death and has never recovered. It's happening in the filming world too. It will kill it off.

• 17 years ago
• 26

I didn't mean that Scots were mean. I meant that to love Maggie Thatcher you would have to ignore her introduction of the Poll Tax in Scotland as a trial before thrusting it onto the Sassenachs!
The Scots are a very warm and generous people,by and large.

• 17 years ago
• 27

Woohoo! you go Helen. I would like to stress it was actually Hestletine that brought the motion forward and it went to vote, Maggie was just the Prime Minister so she got the brunt of the flack. People should read books before flying statements around, it becomes borderline slander.
On about Maggie you know it was Hestletine again, after his shameful Chinook dissapointment, who was givewn a handout by Maggie (in his mind just a woman) to be put in charge of the poll tax, did he do it? No he couldn't be bothered so let the local councils estimate what should be paid, the rest is history. While everyone in the conservative consituencies paid a fair rate those ran by lieberal and labour charged double and why not? One way to get the tories out of power hey? Clever, and then you vote in those idiots that made you pay far too much, much more clever that is, which is why it was called the Council tax, then people knew it was up to the individual councils what they paid and that casued one heck of a stink. Hehe I love watching people fight over this subject, again read first.
Working for nothing? I am in two minds, I have openly said I will help out new directors, but the end of the day it has to have a good script. You'll also find that most of these will pay lodgings, travel costs and food, it's not pay but then you're not out of pocket either, and it beats being sat at home twiddling your thumbs or whatever you do for your kicks. Ultimately though? Paid work only, that's what it should be, but then grants need to be in place for independant film makers, or other types of fundraisers if we are to compete with the rest of the world. Lotto funding would work then everybody would be happy.
We just need to get the cogs working to put it into motion. But remember, everyone has to start somewhere, as far as plumbers and electricians working for free? What do you think apprenticeships are, it's hardly what you'd call wages, but it is on the job experience.
Hollywood, MGM studios and the likes, they did exactly the same, only they called it training. You got lodgings, food and schooling in return for free work in their productions, usually for 2 to 4 years. Judy Garland, Howard Keel, Doris Day, Fred Astaire and a multitude all went through this process, those that skipped it are those willing to give favour on the proverbial casting couch.
Now the way around this is to go to a film acting school as opposed to a drama school, however this isn't covered by most grants so you'd have to pay for it yourself. Personally I'd take the chance on a good script, whilst starting out, and take on a lowbie, it's good honest work, but I'd be inclined for those thinking about this, to get a contract stating deferred payment, that way if it does make it, you'll get some back.
Thanks for listening
Kenny

• 17 years ago
• 28

"Let's face it, nobody REALLY gives a rat's ass how many crap student films or low budget things you've done, they just want to know if you can do THEIR thing worth a damn. Lengthy CV's mean absolutely nowt in the great scream of things. The bottom line should be: work = pay (of some sort)."


ok So maybe I am reading this wrong, are you suggesting that all Student and Low budget films are crap? If you are then I think you are totally wrong I have seen and been in some excellent ones. if not then sorry timmo! :)

I do agree that they just want to see if you can play their character well, but your CV does show them you have experience in that field.

I think that the quality of work on CV and that which is shown in your showreel is of the greatest importance not that you got paid a bundle of cash for it!

I think we can name quite a few awful "blockbuster" films that obviously paid their actors a sh*t tonne of money, which to be honest you couldn't pay me to be part of.

I'm with Helen on this one I do what I want to do.

I always make sure that my expenses are paid for....all the student and Low Budget films I have done have always offered this.

You should never be out of pocket.

Now, if it is a big company, I think we have all seen the recent debates about the cornetto ads, then yes obviously you should be paid.


However,(this is not just for timmo but for everyone who said they won't work unless they are paid) if a really great script came along where they were paying your travel expenses and buying you lunch and a couple of beers afterwards, would you really turn it down if they weren't paying you minimum wage? If everyone else is being paid then yes , you should be paid too but if no one is getting paid then I don;t see the problem.

I, like many people on this site are still waiting to make our way up this showbiz ladder, and I believe that the more work I do the more I learn, and the more good, varied work I have on my CV the better. It shows that I am desirable as an actress and employable.

If they can afford to pay you they should.
If they can't and you like the project. Do it!

anyway, those of you who won't work for free at all, are out of the running and so there is less competition :)

Here comes the old chestnut..."its all down to personnal choice!"

• 17 years ago
• 29

I'm with you rebecca

• 17 years ago
• 30

Thank you :)

• 17 years ago
• 31

Well,Well,Well,
Is'nt this interesting.
Speaking as an Actor/Director, I find the LB/NP debate strange.
2 points:
1, as long as "Actors" (am or pro) are willing to do it, it is not going to stop, so quit bitching, if you dont want to do it, DONT, if you dont mind then DO.
and 2, Fact: 93% of "Actors" in this country are resting( out of work etc), it is a high unemployment industry, so increasing your profile ( to obtain more work of better "quality" and "Pay")through "Freebies" does work, call it freebies, call it networking, call it profit share, whatever, it does work.
What it comes down to (IMHO) is most of the industry is so focused on the reality genre that anyone with the ability, training, ideas, talent and ambition gets overlooked.
At the moment I AM making a LB film, although that is a misnomer, it is in fact a NO Budget film. The reason i am able to make it is.....

Over the last few years, i have done freebies for others, on the condition that when i come to make my film, they will do a freebie for me.
So (hopefully) i have a good script, and a great crew and a awesome cast, who are all prepared to devote thier time to making a QUALITY film for nothing.

Too many people in this industry bitch about things, but very few get off thier arses and actually do something about it.

What it comes down to is Why do you want to be an actor?
If it is for the money, are you sure you are in the right business? it is a sad shame that most "so called" actors are only in it for the money, and it shows in the finished product.
To make that piece of magic that entranced us as children, the magic that made us want to get into the industry from an early age, money is a secondry consideration.
While it would be great for us all to earn the same money as tom hanks or steven speilberg, unless you are very lucky, it is not going to happen overnight.
So ignore LB if you disagree with it, but if you think that you are good enough, if you think that Talent will shine through, if the reason you got into this industry is for the magic, then maybe, just maybe, a Low/No budget, or deferred payment, a profit share, a short film, a student film, or even a competition film might just be shown in the right place, for speilberg to see and then you might make the money the tom hanks does.

Hope no one takes offence

Drew

• 17 years ago
• 32

Can we please keep the discussion on the Working for nothing theme? I know I jokingly put the Poll Tax thing in there but let's not get too carried away politically.
There is a wonderful debate going on here with some marvellous replies.

• 17 years ago
• 33

Good points on both sides here. A couple of things that haven't been addressed are that some of the drama schools have, almost exclusively, theatre training, so how does one get experience? Low/no budget may well be looked down on and is often unpaid, so what's the alternative? Extra work? Well, that is paid, but it's not acting and is even more looked down on. In terms of screen work, I've done a couple of drama documentaries which I don't even list (glorified extra work in my opinion)and a programme for sky, which, although I was acting a part, was a reality programme (unclean, unclean!)- All these projects were paid. It wasn't until last year that I started doing no/low budget and I've been very selective- only four to date, the last one of which, has been picked up by Sky and as a result, the director has been selected out of over 6,000 international applicants, to be mentored by Stephen Frears- I think that was worth doing- what do the sceptics and naysayers think?

• 17 years ago
• 34

Hello again all!

I think that by the sheer volume of responses in a very short period of time we can qualify this topic as one we all feel very strongly about, whatever our stance on the subject. Thanks Alan for raising it.

A good few of you find it positive to be involved in student/LB/expenses only projects. I too have had some great experiences and have met lovely people, possible contacts, worked on pieces that can be used for showreel potentially. All good. I don't see that as the issue here. Honing your craft, helping others achieve a common goal, creating something special that others will appreciate and enjoy - these are things that we ALL strive for as performers and this is not what is being disputed, nor is the suggestion that if it isn't paid then it is crap! Clearly that is nonsense. The chance to achieve some or, all of the above hopes, are ones that can be achieved on projects both paid and unpaid.

I sit on the side of - it's great to work on LB projects, it's great to get the experience, I wouldn't turn it down if it was potentially a great production / career move. It's not even about holding out for Spielberg. It's about being able to earn a modest living from your profession. The current climate is such that this is proving even more of a mirage and impossibility than days gone by. We all know that this profession isn't easy, there isn't an influx of work, but do we really need to just settle for that and that alone?

To bring this discussion back to the beginning I, like Alan, have noticed an increase in unpaid work being advertised. Am I imagining that increase? I don't think I am. What is the reason for that increase?

Drew - "Too many people in this industry bitch about things, but very few get off thier arses and actually do something about it." - How about we start now? With this discussion? Take it somewhere other than the "Green Room" and onto a "platform" where some small spark may ignite a bigger fire?

Quote - Richard - "SOLIDARITY.....its amazing what collective action achieves, just ask Ghandi. :)"

Take care all and again NO OFFENSE intended to anyone here!!
Shannon
xxx

• 17 years ago
• 35

There are so many thoughts and opinions based on this arguement, it does make for a compelling debate.
A professional attitude? You don't need to be a professional to have a professional attitude towards work and a professional outlook on the industry. But for professionals being professional about the industry? What's all that about? So basically anyone starting out isn't professional then? These guys that spent 2-4years training to be an actor, dancer, comic, singer but haven't done any paid work, these guys are unprofessional? They are amateurs? I think it's offensive.
I do agree, however, that there are people out there, who work a regular job and do student, low/no and deferred films for their kicks aswell as amateur theatricals and class themselves as a professional actor and they need herding up together to be force fed a huge slice of reality.
I agree with some of Drew's points but it's two-thirds of actors are resting mate, not 93%. Speilberg started out somwhere, did freebies, he could have taken up pornography like a lot of them did back then but he never, he had his professional attitude before his beard and his
hard work and determination pulled through.
No-one can say whether free work is or isn't worth doing, I am completely with Rebecca on this, though I can see both sides of the arguement. I for one would pick a great script and a potentially good film over money, but only if I could afford to take part, had the time available and that it didn't effect my work and home life.
People forget, Halloween was a deferred payment contract, the only guy to get paid was Donald Pleasence, he got £50,000, the entire budget was £250,000, he got royalties. Jamie Lee Curtis took the part under another name, it was only when she got the part and halfway through filming that she let the cat out of the bag about her father, she wanted to make a name for herself and didn't want hand outs because of her dad. But they all received a pay day thanks to the success of the film, the rest is cinematic history, thank you John Carpenter.
Anne Diamond started out in GMTV, she worked the first 3 months for nothing, that was her offer to the company and it paid off for her.
I respect decisions whether you choose to work for free or not, at the end of the day it's a choice, but I'll be damned if I get classed as an amateur because I take a chance on a deferred project, it's an insane remark.
Have a nice day

Kenny

• 17 years ago
• 36

Well, I have a day job - if I didn't I would be on the streets - but I still class myself as a professional actor and do as much paid work as comes my way. However, I still do the occassional freebie if it's a good script or to help out a friend (I did the unpaid voice over for a film which was nominated for a BAFTA last year and another one won in the comedy section of the Portobello Film Festival, again last year ). I don't want to be rounded up. I'm a professional with a job that pays my mortgage, food and the clothes and courses I need.
Cheers

• 17 years ago
• 37

"Rebecca, i dont see a problem with gaining experience, i can see the arguement for this. But if your not being paid, its an amatuer production, and so are you."

I have a major issue with this blanket statement - how very dare you! Just because a professional decides to perform for free does not an amateur make them.

I am a professional singer and often do concerts for charity and take no musician fee - am I an amateur?

I voluntarily run acting workshops with Lung Ha's theatre company for adults with special needs - am I an amateur teacher?

I have been paid as a singer, actor and drama coach and am making cash as a coach at the moment therefore by your own rules I am a professional. If I choose to do some things for free as a favour or for any other reason that I see fit, that does not class me as an amateur.

I appreciate all the arguments for and against working for free and everyone should decide for themselves - obviously in an ideal world we'd all get paid, however this is not an ideal world and this is not a profession to be in if money is your main aim.

The projects I have done for free have ALWAYS opened doors for me.

Please be careful how you word things in future as I don't appreciate being called an amateur because of my personal choices.

I don't often get on my high horse but I'm staying up here for a while.

Lets remember one thing: amateur does not mean crap.

As for the political tangent - who gives a shit -vote for who you like but I can't be arsed arguing about it anymore so please all stop PM'ing me!

I'm done.
H

• 17 years ago
• 38

Hello Again All,sorry if this comes out twice. I posted it and it went into some strange vortex somewhere!!!

I think that by the sheer volume of responses in a very short period of time we can qualify this topic as one we all feel very strongly about, whatever our stance on the subject. Thanks Alan for raising it.

A good few of you find it positive to be involved in student/LB/expenses only projects. I too have had some great experiences and have met lovely people, possible contacts, worked on pieces that can be used for showreel potentially. All good. I don't see that as the issue here. Honing your craft, helping others achieve a common goal, creating something special that others will appreciate and enjoy - these are things that we ALL strive for as performers and this is not what is being disputed, nor is the suggestion that if it isn't paid then it is crap! Clearly that is nonsense. The chance to achieve some or, all of the above hopes, are ones that can be achieved on projects both paid and unpaid.

I sit on the side of - it's great to work on LB projects, it's great to get the experience, I wouldn't turn it down if it was potentially a great production / career move. It's not even about holding out for Spielberg. It's about being able to earn a modest living from your profession. The current climate is such that this is proving even more of a mirage and impossibility than days gone by. We all know that this profession isn't easy, there isn't an influx of work, but do we really need to just settle for that and that alone?

To bring this discussion back to the beginning I, like Alan, have noticed an increase in unpaid work being advertised. Am I imagining that increase? I don't think I am. What is the reason for that increase?

Drew - "Too many people in this industry bitch about things, but very few get off thier arses and actually do something about it." - How about we start now? With this discussion? Take it somewhere other than the "Green Room" and onto a "platform" where some small spark may ignite a bigger fire?

Quote - Richard - "SOLIDARITY.....its amazing what collective action achieves, just ask Ghandi. :)"

Take care all and again NO OFFENSE intended to anyone here!!
Shannon
xxx

• 17 years ago
• 39

Helen? You're magical, I hope to read more of your posts. Did you know you write like Yoda talks?
eg.
"Just because a professional decides to perform for free does not an amateur make them."

Joking aside an excellent statement, I mean if it were true look at all the amateurs that performed at Live Aid!?!?

Yes low/no budgets and student films can be frowned on, but what's the real arguement here? Are people pissed about not being paid, or not being picked to perform in a no budget?

Some no budget film are complete crap, but then again so are some of the hollywood blockbusters which are alledgedly "professional". Ok choice? Fantastic film with little if no money, or huge amounts of money for a crap and chessy end result?

I know which I'd pick. A professional attitude is something you take into any job paid or unpaid, it has nothing to do with whether you're getting paid for the work at hand. Professionalism isn't based on how much money you earn, it's all a matter of character and how you conduct yourself. Mel Gibson wasn't very professional when he dropped the clanger and fell from grace, but he is still an industry professional. I am sure many of my remarks don't seem professional at times, but that's when high opinions get in the way of better judgement, but that's what a debate is all about isn't it?

Freebies, lo/no's, pay defers, call them what you will are, for some reason tied in with student films. Student films are none of these, they are a class of their own and are made so the people involved can learn. Why not have a pro in their passing on some of their knowledge? Pride takes a back seat in this business we are all learning, everyday and to share what you've learned is an honour if it helps the individual develop into the next (quote Drew here) Tom Hanks, Sigorney Weaver or Steven Speilberg.

Now if it were mentioned that these companies only produce freebies, then that would be an issue, we all had to start somewhere, remember what it was like and endeavour to give something back, this ain;'t an issue about professionalism, just standard working ethics.
Thanks for listening

Kenny

• 17 years ago
• 40