Why work for nothing?

Alan Brent
Actor

Why is it that just about three out of every four ads for work are either unpaid, low paid or deferred payment/no paid!??
I have done some unpaid work that has compounded into a reasonable showreel. But why do directors/ producers spend a FORTUNE on equipment and crew and then expect us to do the most important part (i.e. make their film script and film work) with no reward?
I know actors who will jump at any opportunity to get in front of a lens. It doesn't matter that they are crap actors or that they can't remember their lines. But to do it for nothing, often having to pay most of their own expenses puzzles me beyond belief!
What are your views?


  • 17 years ago
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AUDAY PUTRUS
Actor

how about an organised march outside the equity office with banners'no more free work'.

i had a call from someone 2 days ago asking me to audition for a play, i was told THERE IS NO PAYMENT INVOLVED. so i asked wether there was atleast a profit share involved and NO was still the answer.

so not only do i have to get through the stress of auditioning baring in mind you have to prepar something for this audition but there is also NO PAYMENT at all.

what is this industry coming too. (breathe deeply)

by the way im not auditioning


  • 17 years ago
  • 41
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Lets look at this way

1- your a student actor , unless your very lucky
your first jobs would be low/no pay , you do these jobs to gain experience ( i know i did )

2- you move on , you get an agent , you do paid work ( with any luck ) and move up the ladder

now look at it from a student director POV

1- needs to learn how to work with actors
and who is he going to use mainly student actors

2- moves on to maybe payed or self paid work
maybe he cannot pay the equity rate but if he has any talent the script/film would do something

we are all on a learning curve
maybe we should just take a step back
and remember
well thats my thoughts
anyone disagree?


  • 17 years ago
  • 42
AUDAY PUTRUS
Actor

Alex

i tried to make my post sound nicer than it is.

it was not even a play it was a PANTO. so go through stress of panto and dont get paid?

apparently its a good panto to showcase youself in ha ha ha.

well atleast we will not be short of conversations at the last fri meet this month.

you coming Alex, we could have a blue corner and a red corner and air our views


  • 17 years ago
  • 43
Drew MacIver
Actor

Me again,
Right here's my attempt to address some of the issues raised here.

To go back to Alan's original post,

quote "why do directors/ producers spend a FORTUNE on equipment and crew and then expect us to do the most important part (i.e. make their film script and film work) with no reward?"

Because most of the time the equipment has to be hired, but that does not mean anyone else is getting paid either, more often than not the funding for the hire of equipement comes out of the directors own pocket.

Quote from Alex "The point is, when a large film organisation puts together a budget for a picture, that budget includes money for actors from the very outset."

You shot yourself in the foot here m8, since when have Lo/No been made by LARGE film organisations.Most of them are made by those who are either starting out, or have not been in the right place or at right time to get that Lucky break, and believe me it is LUCK, Luck will get you a break, but it is up to you to prove you are good enough to survive.

"Continuing to look on this as acceptable cheapens the profession"

What? and I suppose Big Brother does nothing but good for the profession, making sure that the breaks that we worked for, go to unknown untalented wasters who have never had a second of training and who will do anything to be famous, does not cheapen it?

Quote from Shannon "How about we start now? With this discussion? Take it somewhere other than the "Green Room" and onto a "platform" where some small spark may ignite a bigger fire?"

Great what do you suggest? Where do we take it?
Lets get together and Blockade Endomol, will they listen and stop making Big Brother? Will they heck.
C'mon lets be rational, most production companies are so busy making reality shows, that the honest hard working jobbing actors/singers/dancers et al, dont get a chance.

So some of us will try to make quality films for Little or NO Money (maybe the next 28 days later), hoping to get it into a position that it will get that break we all dream of.

Thats what Tarrentino, Speilberg, Lucas and Cameron did, and look what happened to them.

If you fancey joining me for the ride IM me.

Hope I have not caused too much offence.

Drew


Acting all high and mighty and refusing to help those starting out, is one of the reasons the industry is in such bad shape at the moment.


  • 17 years ago
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I think that you have summed it up perfectly drew.
Thanks.


  • 17 years ago
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Hi there Mark,

Well you've just described my idea of utopia in this one line: -

"2- you move on , you get an agent , you do paid work ( with any luck ) and move up the ladder".

I think the wording in brackets is where the ruler points for me. I think there has been a discussion here about "luck" before. Luck is only achieved with the necessary ingredients for the cocktail. One of them being - the opportunites being there in the first instance.

Yes - Young film makers have it as tough as us. No disagreement there.

Hey Drew - You're absolutely right. It's the "fat cat" syndrome of reality TV. It's horrible. I think you know as well as I do that your tongue in cheek suggestion would be pointless and fruitless. However, so is doing nothing at all. I also really don't think anyone was being "high and mighty" at all. I know I wasn't. I see, understand and empathise with everyone's thoughts and feelings (sending out the love!!)and I welcome opportunity with open arms if it is to potentially prove fruitful in more ways than one.

Take care all!
Xx

PS: Alex. Maybe a trip to Equity wouldn't go amiss? Maybe not with a protest, but an offer of information and feelings from a great many actors/actresses within the industry today. "RISE UP" (Ocado.com stylie!!)


  • 17 years ago
  • 46
Mark Joseph
Actor

Somewhere between 750,000 and 2 million people marched in London to protest against the war in Iraq. That didn't help.

Standing outside Equity with a sign won't do any good either.

If you want to raise points, make them heard through the channels that already exist. Write an article for the Stage, visit your local Equity representative, go to the meetings, etc.


M.


  • 17 years ago
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Yes - quite Mark. Protest seem to have lost its "welly". You can't even hold up the plight of death and destruction these days! I agree that approching Equity from the usual channels is a starting point. Anyone want to write an article for the Stage?


  • 17 years ago
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Kenny Richards-Preston
Actor, Singer

Drew mate?

Alex wrote...
"The point is, when a large film organisation puts together a budget for a picture, that budget includes money for actors from the very outset"

Quick recap, he's saying that when a big film company budgets for a film, the money for the actors is set in place from the start. Which is completely true, he hasn't mentioned that corporate producers make low budget films at all, think you got wrong end of the stick on that one buddy, apart from that I agree with you.
Nice one

kenny


  • 17 years ago
  • 49
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Isn't there a Friday social thingy at the end of the month? I know it's a social, but it may be an apt opportunity to draft some sort of letter there? I'd love to meet you all, I haven't done so to date. Is there an opportunity for people in other regions apart from London to meet and do the like, or come and join down in London? What a great opportunity to be proactive. Even for those of you happy with the way things are right now, what about coming on board and adding your voice to an uncertain future for the profession?
Any thoughts or ideas on that?
xx Shannon


  • 17 years ago
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Toni Brooks
Actor

Hi Shannon

I would have loved to come along to the Friday social but I'm taking my mum back to Scotland on that day. If you do all meet up and draft a letter, please let the rest of us know what's been done.
I'd be more than happy to join in on other actions to do with this subject.
Anyone look on Talent Circle - there's a dearth of paid jobs there.
Cheers


  • 17 years ago
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Mark Joseph
Actor

Unfortunately the Stage, and Equity, are already aware of this issue.

There's just not much they can do about it right away. There have been letters printed, the issue raised many times, and discussed on the Stage internet forum. Do people think the industry's Union is not fully aware that it's members are not happy with this state of affairs?

They know.

M.


  • 17 years ago
  • 52
Kenny Richards-Preston
Actor, Singer

Hi Shannon,
Not me sorry, as usual the meetings are too far away to travel. On top of that I'm gigging Friday, but I will make it to one one of these days

Kenny


  • 17 years ago
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AUDAY PUTRUS
Actor

shannon great subject for the meet, does this mean ure coming?


  • 17 years ago
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Toni Brooks
Actor

No, no, no Alex - we're all professional here :-))


  • 17 years ago
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Toni Brooks
Actor

Tee hee :-))


  • 17 years ago
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Drew MacIver
Actor

Bet alan is sat there thinking " Oh my God what have I started"

lol

Too late now m8,

he he

Drew


  • 17 years ago
  • 57
Kenny Richards-Preston
Actor, Singer

Richard,
After reading your post with interest I have to say I am inclined to agree on most of what you said, but then, and I hate crossing discussions here, but by your own merit you are bringing to the fold reality tv shows aren't professional, which I tend to agree, yet while you go on with passion regarding the stemming of freebie film-makers, not one word was said about the growing epidemic of crap cheap tv shows. Did everyone on "How do you solve a problem like Maria" get paid? No is the firm answer, it was all for exposure feeding the countries interest and bring even more cheap reality (or should I say freebie) television.
I think that was what Drew was trying to get across in his last post, though I could be wrong. But to blanket ban this culture of freebie films then you should include freebie tv also, and this is only my personal opinion here, but I feel the tv genre of free tv is far, far worse.
The argument here would be that it was a competition, and the prize of the role was the ultimate goal, but then with a free film the product is the ultimate goal. I would sanction free film over free tv any day of the week.
However, there are far too many film-makers filling their own pockets by producing free films and nothing else. Now? To make one or two then bringing in a budget is fair play and good luck to them, it's this popular commodity which needs trashing, but how to do it?
There's the closed shop that Alex mentioned, bring back union control but then only those who were fortunate to attend accredited film and acting schools like Rada, Lamda and the likes would get the work. Not everyone has the financial background to enrol in these schools, ok there're scholarships to be attained but then 8 times out of 10 the placement is given to the child/student whose family links would be of benefit to that establishment. You seem to forget how hard it was to get into Equity, you needed an armful of work under your belt which you could really only get through these schools unless you'd made a name on the variety circuit, but even that was tough because the general workload you needed was doubled and was generally frowned upon.
The USA was just as bad with the Screen Actors Guild, you couldn't get a job in the industry without professional working experience, and you couldn't get pro work experience without being a member to be able to get a job, it's a vicious circle. Most of the American stars we all know and love started out in Porn flicks because it was classed as pro work experience, some directors too, I won't mention names, but it's easy to figure out who starred in "The Italian Stallion", so to create a closed shop will only fuel more freebies in order to get the work experience needed to become a member.
Not that it really concerns the majority of us who are lucky to have experience to carry the card but think of all the genuinely talent youngsters that would never have the chance to shine, so for me that's not the answer.
I think the foolproof answer would be, if no contract is offered with at least a deferred payment then don't do it. These companies and film-makers should need to be registered with a full portfolio of their work, their should be a government legislation allowing on 4 maybe 5 films as "free from profit", and this should start from student level. I think the Kaibosh needs to be on the growing trend of Guerilla filming and these companies that run freebies again and again and again. That's what's ruining the business in my mind. I personally have never been involved with a film where I didn't get something, even if it was just expenses and each one held a contract.
I made my own which, by the way is still in production, I wanted to produce a film so badly as a showcase for the talent who couldn't get noticed because quite honestly Reality took over. The reason it's shelved is simply because I want a budget for it, and I want the guys involved to be paid, it'll take a major rewrite because filming started 3 years ago, if it takes another 10years I'll still make sure those involved then and in future will get something out of it, but that's just me.
If more was done to promote British Films, the low budget would be only low in comparison to the blockbusters and epics, but minimum wage would be in place, in an ideal world that is! Grants, industry loans and financial companies set in place from the government as they do in most other countries, ok there are a few UK grants for film-making, but have you tried to get one? Blood and stone spring to mind!
For now, a compulsory registry of film-makers and their work would be a good start, but please bear in mind, not all lowbies are a bad thing, some great films have been made on a shoestring with deferred monies in place, Halloween, Crocodile Dundee and Rocky to name but 3. Some of the actors in these films were paid upfront, some did it for nothing more than exposure but the majority got expenses only, then a small percentage of the profits.
Sorry this is so long, but there were so many issues running through this debate, there could be more positive moves to restrict these freebie tv and film projects but to stop them completely? We'd be cutting our noses off to spite our faces.
Thanks for reading

Kenny


  • 17 years ago
  • 58
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Thank goodness I'm bored s**tless today!! I've enjoyed this thread. It's given me something to do!! Yes, Alan! Where have you gone?!! Sitting back and surveying the carnage I shouldn't wonder!!

Richard/Kenny - Thank you for your recent posts. It must have taken time and thought. Let's all agree that everyone has their opinion on this, but if we all agree that if we meet to compose something it will be for that purpose and will hoefully eliminate the debate aspect. Hopefully the bulk of that has been done here and now it's time to make that next step forward.

Antoinette - Of course you'll be kept in the loop, whatever happens! Hopefully we can organise something where you will be able to make it. It doesn't have to be the Fri Social thing this time. I looked on TalentCircle and yes, the X sign seems to be a prominent feature, doesn't it! :0(

Kenny - Again, it would be good to arrange something when you can make it too, seeing as you've contributed to this discussion a fair bit.

Auday - If we can arrange something, I'll be there :0)

Alex - "And of course I meant Rich was the one to write the letter not John. John was a name I made up from god knows where as a result of today's lack of sleep and subsequent caffeine overload! LOL"

Caffeine….you can never have too much!! I think that Rich is a perfect candidate to draft something up - Rich???? Up for it? Want to meet up and draft?

Mark - Thanks for your post. I'm sure the likes of Equity et al are aware of the situation but it doesn't hurt to a) keep the issues on the boil b) not put a brick wall up in front of the obstacle and c) keep a hold on what they are doing about it.

Love to all
xx


  • 17 years ago
  • 59
Kenny Richards-Preston
Actor, Singer

I think if we are all to meet it needs to be somehwere central, I'd love to propose restrictions and try generate interest in forming some kind of registry and putting inplace funding for film-makers a governing board could be set in place like Michael Winner and the likes, it could be fair but it may just end up becoming a whole lot of red tape. I am meeting up with Drew as we live quite close later tonight, we're gonn run some things and post it later, would love peoples views on this.
On about a meeting place Nottingham is quite central, what do you think?
cheers

Kenny


  • 17 years ago
  • 60
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