Student Films - Let's just stop it!

Paul, I have made the same promise to myself. NO MORE STUDENT FILMS. I, too, had trouble with the Met School and had to bring Equity into it to finally get my DVD. You are right that we should ALL stop doing them. Good Luck with that, though! Sue

• 11 years ago
• 1

Paul, I have made the same promise to myself. NO MORE STUDENT FILMS. I, too, had trouble with the Met School and had to bring Equity into it to finally get my DVD. You are right that we should ALL stop doing them. Good Luck with that, though! Sue

• 11 years ago
• 2

Yes!!

I did this over a year ago and I have still managed to function as an actor without taking any unpaid work.

Stick to your guns, we all deserve to be treated with respect. I've found I have had a lot less 'drama' by knowing that I am getting paid from the start, and the people I have worked with have been much more professional.

Best of luck :)

• 11 years ago
• 3

Well said and bravo!

• 11 years ago
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I have been lucky with student films .I don't apply for them but they contact me .I have only had one that wasted my time by calling me for a rehearsal when I arrived the others had not so then I heard nothing .i assume it was scrapped .Recently however I had a request for a piece of vo .Which I did .I was then told her tutor had told her to use another one from someone else .I wrote and told her her tutor should apologise and that I never audition so the email should have stated it was an audition and not a cast ..piece .so avoid Rochester media studies students

• 11 years ago
• 5

I've only been on one audition for a student film from a reputable university.

I got there ahead of time as I usually would for any work and waited patiently for my time to come. The time came and went and it was only by luck that I checked my email to find one from the director five minutes before my audition time saying that some other member of the casting team was ill that day and wasn't in, therefore my audition was cancelled and would I like to rearrange.

Of course, common courtesy should have dictated that they email (or better yet, phone) me once they knew the audition was cancelled rather than wait until 14:55 before telling me.

Never again.

• 11 years ago
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This topic has been done to death. NONE of the casting websites, CCP, SP or whoever will really get involved in this as it is not really their "business". (Although to be fair CCP has encouraged job posters to sign up to the Protecting Actors Agreement and the few other protocols/procedures available for lo/no budget productions of all types). It is too difficult for many to get good-quality footage for them to forgo working with film schools.

Actors must treat their work like a business and use their own contracts if none is forthcoming from their employers to protect their rights as agreed to BEFORE starting work: travel expenses, copy of film, proper credit on IMDB and elsewhere and whatever else you, the performer feel is necessary for you to feel safe and valued on that project. For me, I won't work if they don't have insurance now. Even the most mundane scene could be a potential disaster if, say, a heavy piece of furniture or kit falls on you during a setup or shooting a shot.

Other artistic freelancers like website and graphic designers have similar problems and deal with it. If you are pleasant and business-like from the get-go at the interview/audition stage, confirming the terms of the shoot and then get them to sign a contract before you even start preparing for a shoot on the day they will think twice before messing with you. And yes, once I did go as far as threatening the Head of the entire bloody Film School with a lawsuit (based on said contract and a basic knowledge of contract law) after being ignored and stymied by both the arrogant tossers who made said short film and an indifferent administration. If the Met School found themselves harassed by a stream of actors who had legitimate contracts (meaning a legitimate case in Small Claims Court) and the wherewithal to publicse their cavalier attitude to essential collaborators in the filmaking process they might very well change their attitude. But without a contract it's only a verbal deal and very difficult to prove in court.

If you are not sure how to "play" this scenario, then roleplay it with friends so you feel less nervous when negotiating. Decent filmakers, even beginners only need a gentle nudge sometimes. It's not rocket science, it's mindset. So stop bitching and DO SOMETHING TO HELP YOURSELF.

No offense to anyone in particular intended.

• 11 years ago
• 7

Perhaps I too have been lucky, but ive had nothing but good experiences with the Met Film School. In fact they're usually the first film school I reccommend to other actors, as in the past ive been treated with nothing but respect and even paid to some extent on occasion. However, it has been well over a year since ive worked with them, Im wondering if maybe the tutors have changed and the same emphasis on how to treat actors properly is no longer being taught, just a theory.

• 11 years ago
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Have had some very good experiences, with film schools MET was not one of them!

• 11 years ago
• 9

Agreed.
I stopped doing student work when I continually received laughable edits and terrible audio in final copies.
I only recently thought I'd give a student film anoter shot when I was contacted by one who'd seen my work and practically begged me to participate.
Three months on and all I've had is appologies about how long it's taking to secure a filming date and the feeling that I should back out before the work is ''pushed to a later date'... Again.

• 11 years ago
• 10

Though I only apply to a select few student films I have personally had a really good experience with the MET school, receiving pay and dvd within 2 weeks. However many of my friends have had bad experiences. I think this should really be based on judgement of character at the auditions as there are some real genuine students out there who will pay and give dvds on time!
Just basing this on my experience. Maybe I have been fortunate!

• 11 years ago
• 11

Err, they're STUDENTS.
What do you expect?

People talk like they expect to walk out with a perfect piece of film for their show reel.
Students in any realm generally know f^&k all, because they are still learning.
Give 'em a break.

Tutors can't necessarily teach professionalism, but more so technicality.
It's your job going in as a professional actor to get the DVD, CD, FILE etc delivered in good time.
I've always made it clear it's a prerequisite to the whole thing; I've never experienced a student letting me down.

• 11 years ago
• 12

David….I read what you say but you are shifting the emphasis on to the actor and some of the blame too I feel! I agree with you but only to a certain extent!

As a show-reel editor and provider, I am often involved with students and trying to locate the Hi RES footage for the actors etc. I am often met with rudeness and arrogance from the Film schools as they mostly adopt a "could not give a monkeys" attitude….and tell me to take it up with the student!

I absolutely do blame the Film Schools and their students for this all too regular problem. If an actor agrees to give up time to appear in the film for free, the very least they should expect WITHOUT HASSLE is to receive their promised footage within an agreed time period.

Yes - I agree if you are taking part in a student production, you take a huge chance and a punt on how good the quality of that footage, and the sound is going to be. After all, you take a chance on how good the Director, the DOP, the lighting if any, the editing, and the other actors will be too. They are all either learning, or working on the cheap or for free, just like you.

So if you are expecting top quality "movie look" quality graded footage from a student film….you are being very naïve! It's also why I offer bespoke footage and scenes written and filmed from scratch. That way, you will 100% receive well shot, clear enough and sharp enough footage with clear sound, which shows you off as your exactly casting type and ability….without waiting for months and possibly, quite often even….never getting the footage at all!

I think the answer is simple enough and as said….has been done to death on here. CCP thrives on freebie jobs being advertised….as it attracts many "fee paying" actors looking to do "something" on film. So I do not think you can blame CCP at all. It's down to the actor to judge this all for themselves.

I deal with actors wanting reels….all very naively entering into student projects as even Drama schools advocate the Student Film model as a "great way" to build up credits. Not everyone is a tough hard fighting dude who is willing to take on and argue with the Film School principles and gain the footage and or expenses etc. Consequently the problem just goes on and on.

Yes Paul is right to say boycott it and I understand his sentiments. However, I don't think it's the final nor most effective solution as it will affect those wanting to take part in and those making the films. The whole thing needs policing properly.

I feel the best way to do this is for all actors to police it for themselves…..I don't see its all down to Equity either, not if the production is a non equity project!

So for free pay low budget and Student productions etc, if I ever do them…this is my suggestion.

Have your own individual, simple contract to hand indicating simply and politely what was agreed over the phone regarding - Role - Expenses - Times - Payment - and the time scale and format of the edited footage. The contract should state; failure to provide any of these elements will result in an invoice to be paid within 30 days following the invoice date, to cover your time spent on a daily bases of X amount £'s This contract needs to be signed by the unit producer….the director…..and in an ideal world, the film school principle.

Once you have had that document signed…..you and the film maker are covered are you not? Any issues, …wallop….see you in the small claims court!!

Actors really do need to step back and consider what they want and what they are likely to get from a student production! To an extent I do see David's point regarding the fact "they are just learning" However, who the hell is teaching the students that you can have shoddy organising skills and or treat actors like they are ten a penny nobody's?

Also, where is this ridiculous myth "If you want footage and to build up your CV…..do lots of student films" come from? It's quite often untrue and the fact that "It has been done to death" on here…only proves that in my opinion.

If you are simply wanting experience…maybe fair enough……but if you want to gain decent footage to use as a showreel…..I would think very carefully regarding student films. Obviously there are stories which are good experiences, but not enough to make the problem be in a minority or rare.

An actors reel is, and should be, your main PR Tool. They are specific, and highly important aids to show off your casting type and acting on camera ability. They are also your first port of call for a casting director or a prospective agent! They are in short….your one and sometimes only chance to give a 1st impression of yourself, to the casting department. So why on earth would you leave all of that to chance or to a bunch of disorganised students learning their trade…..or rush to have it done on the cheap….doesn't make sense to me!

Some students are brilliant and treat actors properly……it aint rocket science….but it's up to each of us to consider the planning of a show-reel - and to police student productions accordingly.

Best to all.

Mark Kempner

• 11 years ago
• 13

I did a student film few months back for met Film student (although under his production company name), got an imdb credit for it but still waiting for DVD despite repeatedly messaging him.

• 11 years ago
• 14

Great post (and name!) Mark. Drafting a simple, non-intimdating but still clear contract seems to be an intelligent way forward.

• 11 years ago
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I've always had really positive experiences with student filmakers and let's be honest none of us do them for altruistic reasons.

We offer our time and skills because we need the showreel footage, credit or experience. Surely the point here is that they are STUDENTS so to complain about the quality of footage seems laughable to me, of course it doesn't look proffessional it isn't professionally made if you want proffessional looking footage pay for it do a film course etc etc or wait until your agent puts you up for screen work and hope you get it.

The students I've worked with have been incredibly passionate about what they are doing and the student crews I've worked with have put twice the work time and effort in that I have . I've always been treated well, fed, had my expenses covered and received footage in a timely fashion.

I'm very careful about this work I go for dissertation or masters students. I find out their deadlines for hand in and keep in touch during the editing stage. I also request everything is sent to drop box so that it's easier for them to get stuff to me. I make sure I get written confirmation or a basic contract that states I'll get a copy though I have never had to use it. most importantly I recognise that these are people who are learning and who may not get it right every time treat people with respect and you get respect back

Perhaps instead of having a boycott on students films we should offer the film schools etc an hour of our time to pop in and give a seminar to new filmakers about how to work with actors

Just a thought!

• 11 years ago
• 16

Ha...I tried that twice with 2 different film schools, offering to go and have a chat/workshop with the students about how to work with actors....and both schools said not if we have to pay anything...not even expenses! They said we cover how to work with actors during the year. My ass they do!

Its a great idea....and one that we should do. Just to go in and have 1.5 hr workshop Q&A It would create a better understanding all round I would think.

It would be important for this to be done by experienced actors though.

I know why film schools don't want us there....coz of the ruddy NMW debate and un-clear details still surrounding it!

Young film makers and older experienced ones too....are under the impression that we are all a desperate breed....and there are many who are sadly. Hence the problem will perpetuate until something positive and constructive on "both" sides takes place.

Going in to chat too fledgling film makers would be a good start.

• 11 years ago
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Like Margaret, I don't contact them, they contact me but my journey to this point, has been like many examples I have read here and yes, this subject has been done to death.

My experience with the Met School has been to attend an audition, where I was treated like a professional and while I wasn't cast, I was advised as such. My experience with the London School Film is an entirely different matter and would never work for them again. The arrogance and behaviour of their students is appalling. The fact this School is a cash rich institution and still don't pay actors are able to ignore Equity, speaks volumes about the London Film School.

A few months ago, I did a student film for a student at Central St Martins and had a good time and was advised of the film's completion and sent a link to YouTube. So there is at least one good story.

I have written a couple articles about why I am reluctant to work for free, which can be found on my blog danieljude.Wordpress.com . Can't think of the exact links but the articles are there.

• 11 years ago
• 18

I've never worked at the Met School, but I've done a few student films down the years. Most have always been enjoyable and positive experiences, and I've always gotten a copy DVD at the end of it. The only exception, and one which I didn't enjoy, was a short I did with Bournemouth about 3 years ago (I didn't want a copy of the completed film, and was just glad to get away from the place!).

Recently (Dec) I worked on a student film with a really good bunch of LCC students - creative, friendly, professional, and generally good fun to be around. I'm quite an outgoing person, but if I'd been less communicative I'm sure they would have respected that. I was the only actor in it (yes, I liked the script, but that's mainly what attracted me to the film - the camera time) with 12 of a crew staying in a lovely remote little village in sleepy Norfolk for a week (grade 2 listed farmhouse). They gave me the biggest bedroom (happy to accept!), made some nice meals (there was always plenty of snacky stuff around), and ok, once or twice it was fish fingers and chips when we got in very late after a very long day day filming - but nobody complained, including me. I really loved the whole experience and recently was delighted to catch up again with them all when I went along to their year grad film showings at BAFTA, where our film was shown along with all the others from that year.

I never apply for these things - but like many of you, get contacted on CCP. As I was away in Norfolk for a week, I had to take a couple of nights off my pub job to do the film. So I got my agent involved when they offered me the role after the audition. I wasn't going to be out of pocket to do the film. My agent negotiated a fee which more than covered my lost wage (not by a huge amount, but I was happy with it).

After the film was done, one of the students on the crew contacted me asking if I'd be interested in doing his first post-grad short film (sent me a script, we met up discussed the project etc) which we just finished filming 2 weeks ago. He offered me a fee at the very outset which I was very happy with (which I might add, I just received today!), and I have to say, it was another fabulous filming experience all round.

This paid film came out of doing a student film for which I was also paid and got a copy of the DVD. After Bournemouth I was put off and said to myself that I'd never do another student film again - but I'm glad I didn't stick to my guns!

There'll always be bad and good experiences, but I've learned not to tar them all by the same brush. There's nothing to stop you asking for a fee if they offer you the role. We're too eager to work for no money in this country! Also, there's a thing called an actor's/producers agreement - a legal one page contract that protects you from not being given a copy DVD (I got a copy of it when I did a showreel workshop at the Actor's Centre from the tutor I worked with). If you can get a copy of this doc, then you have something to cover yourself with. Once they sign it they're legally bound (before you agree to doing the film and if you sense there might be problems about getting a copy later).

Anyway, I thought I'd just put my oar in on the subject!

Best wishes,

James

• 11 years ago
• 19

It's interesting (despite being done to death!) to see good and bad stories....but I think at the end of the day it comes down to the individual students you are dealing with rather than the school?

If you do student projects, I'd also advise: Go with the students who have been out in the field and come back to do their Post grad or whatever. For my own part I found the Nat Westminster Film school experience the only really good one. The quality of the film production which I was in and the others shown on the night were excellent. Well written, beautifully filmed and graded footage, but these students had already worked for 2-3 years in the field. Also DVD's for the films were handed to the actors on the night of the screening.

The only problem I had there was this; I was not allowed to put the short I was in on-line as it was touring the festival circuit. This was really annoying, and something to be aware of if you are cast in a short at anytime. If the short is for festivals, you may not enter anything into a festival which has already been on line?! Anyone know if that's true or not these days?

Of course one should not tar all student films with the same brush….but that's like saying all TV Commercial castings are well run and you are never kept hanging about for hours and hours!!

Whenever I am asked to be in such projects, I would say 90% of the time, as soon as I mention a fee. and a contract/agreement....the scallywags run for the hills! That saves me a lot of heartache I think!

• 11 years ago
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