low-pay/ no pay

Like Mike says, I think it's important to try and take a positive view of independent film. And I would go father and say I believe that, at the base level, the industry is changing. We can all like it or not, but I think it's true.

Equity was mentioned Equity a while back; well, our union is a good example.

When I started out it took me fifteen years to get my card and now any drama school graduate can walk away with one. (Of course I could have got one straight away if I'd taken a colleague's offer to strip in a gay club.) In the end I got it for doing museum theatre, but only after the collapse of the closed shop. Prior to that no one at Equity was prepared to admit there was such a type of employment for actors (I'm sure many still don't.) And yet I was earning a wage that was way above the Equity minimum. Today, plenty of actors are involved in this type of work. Equity is not always the best judge of what's best for actors…

Personally I believe the collapse of the closed shop was a cause for celebration: it was a despicable convention, and anyone who condoned or continues to condone a system that bars artists from working doesn't deserve to be called one themselves. However there has been a price - these days, anyone who goes to an accredited drama school can walk out with a union card and line up for jobs, paying or otherwise. Not all drama school graduates have either the talent or determination to succeed, and although we can't all make it we're all trying like hell anyway.

Many would say the process is becoming gridlocked. But is it? No, I don't think so. In the end a certain percentage of people will get the best paid work, quickly or slowly and in doing so achieve different levels of success. Success in acting has always been a sort of supply-plus-demand-divided-by-talent situation. Yet, unless you're lucky, it's still very hard to break in quickly and profitably and I believe actors who have yet to make the mark they desire should do anything and everything possible to increase their chances of being noticed.

In the theatre, good profit shares at recognised venues are a recognised way of attracting agents and casting directors. Frequently these people, especially those with links primarily in theatre, will come to see a good production and they won't give a damn whether the actors are being paid. They're talent scouts, not accountants. But once they've earmarked you, any work they offer will be paid. It's a worthwhile trade-off.

The same thing, I believe, is beginning to happen with film & TV. There are cable channels out there that will buy any product that meets industry broadcasting standards, and retail outlets that will stock any audio-visual product providing it's properly burned and packaged. The internet is anyone's business! This is an incredible opportunity for actors to take more control over their careers, not less. If out of this type of work comes vital camera experience and decent footage of an actor, it's insane to say, "Equity says I can't do it". Do any of us really believe that David Tennant is going to have his wages slashed for the next Doctor Who season just because we've done a few independent films?

And is any casting director who has taken the time to give our CVs more than a passing glance going to say "Hm, A has no screen credits at all, while B has half a dozen indie films under his/her belt. OK, guess there's nothing to tell between them"? Come on…

I for one am convinced that the future for actors must embrace a far more eclectic attitude towards getting taking work and getting themselves seen. Showreels are part of the process, high quality low paid work on deferred contracts another, and one I think will become far more important as the indie film market changes with the impact of cheap digital technology.

I intend to embrace these changes, and I encourage others to do the same. And in time, I have no doubt Equity will too.

Best to all, KD.

• 17 years ago
• 21

Very interesting debate ...
I agree with Clifford and Sovay, however I have done some work for free...ie films projects where the proceeds go to charity or where a project has inspired my creativity, but I pick them very carefully, more often than not I say no.

It does frustrates me and amaze me... would you expect a cleaner to clean your house for free? would you expect a typist to work for free? Then why do people expect (and it is NOW becoming an expectation) that actors will work for free. I have spoken to some directors/crew etc and their attitude towards actors are that we are 10 a penny...and there will always be someone who will do it... I know of directors/producers that will pay dops, directors, spend loads on equipment and blow the rest of the budget on special effects and animations and NOT pay the actors....errrr hello...there seems to be film companies that time and time again produce films that pay everyone except the actor.

I am of the viewpoint that ~ I have the right to ask and expect payment for the use of my time, skills and experience. That payment does not always have to be monetary though some projects I will do to work with inspiring people/writers/actors. So that's payment for the soul :)

Augustine x

• 17 years ago
• 22

dear KD,

I've just read your comments and one issue jumped out at me, I hope you'll forgive me for quoting you here:

"And is any casting director who has taken the time to give our CVs more than a passing glance going to say "Hm, A has no screen credits at all, while B has half a dozen indie films under his/her belt. OK, guess there's nothing to tell between them"? Come on…"

Well I believe that they may just well think that because they, in reality, have hundreds of Cs with, for want of a better word, legitimate screen credits on their cvs.

However, I'll admit that your rules may apply to the very young and very beautiful.

Certainly lets me off the hook.

all the best,

cliff

• 17 years ago
• 23

Cliff,

Yep, CV-wise I'm definitely talking about the young and beautiful! (Which I never was anyway.)

Also I meant to say in that post, thanks for your best wishes, they were appreciated.

Best in return, KD.

• 17 years ago
• 24

I just feel I have to comment on part of KD's reply #30 where he says -
"Equity says I can't do it". Do any of us really believe that David Tennant is going to have his wages slashed for the next Doctor Who season just because we've done a few independent films?

Firstly if you ask Equity about no-pay films they will currently advise you not to work on them. You are can ignore their advice if you wish. Equity does not tell you what to do; only what the staff believe would be the best course of action based on the many court cases or distressed actors they have been involved with.

Also in the short term, no, the likes of David Tennant will not have their wages slashed because other actors have worked for free. However if we all carry on working for nothing, in the longer term that will have an effect on the rates of pay for all of us.

Cheers
Sovay

• 17 years ago
• 25

We do what we need to.

Yes, the industry would be better if everyone said no to unpaid work, as it would force people to pay if they want pros on their project.

HOWEVER, that is NOT how the business is as it stands today, and people need to get over that fact extremely quickly or they are doomed to failure.

How many of you are getting good paid auditions every week? I'm not. So I supplement what I have with certain unpaid work if the criteria passes muster, to me. That way I can keep the acting muscles working, while networking and constantly learning about the intricacies of screen acting. I did a soap pilot a few weeks ago. Unpaid? Yup. Did I learn anything? Absolutely! Multi-camera was new to me, now it isn't.

Equity give the same holier-than-thou advice as tutors at drama school. Why? Because they are in the previliged position of not having to live it.



Mark.

• 17 years ago
• 26

Dear Sovay,

All I can say is, I don't believe what you say. I may be wrong, but the fact is that historically there's no evidence to support your opinion. Actors wages are not falling. On the contrary the ones that succeed are earning more than ever! What's more, the sort of unpaid jobs on which this thread has focused exist precisely because of the proliferation of film schools and independent filmmakers. And you're telling newbies to ignore these institutions and people? Madness.

The truth is that at the top end, actors' wages will always remain high because the public will clamour to watch them. At the bottom end, young and/or starting out actors have to make a decision about whether they want to sit around doing nothing or instead get out and gain the valuable experience they need, even if that's by taking unpaid work.

Best, KD.

• 17 years ago
• 27

dear Mark,

I think we agree that the industry has changed, I'm not hearing from anyone that it's changed for the better for actors and I think we have to ask for the reasons why in order for us to stop making the same mistakes.

The ending of the closed-shop emasculated (I'm not happy with that word but it will have to do for now)Equity. The gates into the industry were opened and many good people came through, along with thousands of less talented hobby actors. The accredited drama school system effectively collapsed, creating scores of new courses and thousands more trained young actors to integrate into an already massively overcrowded workforce.

Taking natural advantage of the new technology, the casting process changed into the 2 tier system we have today.

And what do we do to help ourselves? We allow ourselves to work for nothing.

Now I fully appreciate that nothing I can say will stop people doing what they want to do. And I wouldn't want them to in a way - always healthy for a younger generation to rebel against older ones. However, I genuinely feel that by working for nothing, particularly when the actors are the only unpaid people on set, we damage ourselves.

I have no idea how this can be righted given a small demand for a monstrous supply. But, having devoted a large amount of my life to being a working actor and seeing the erosion of the quality of an actor's life (including financially) then I have to say that by allowing what I would call exploitation, other people will call it other things, we are diminishing ourselves and our profession.

Lamenting the passing of the good old days? Trust me, they were never that great but they were, to my mind anyway, much healthier.

Anyway, rant over. Time for nurse to tuck me in.

And I would like to say, Mark, that I genuinely enjoy your posts on this site and I feel that much of your comment is very informative.

all the best,

cliff

• 17 years ago
• 28

Spot on, I think, Lil. Good luck with your paid gig.

• 17 years ago
• 29

# 38: "Let's not forget that Equity specify a minimum wage, but they do not specify maximum working hours - the only Union of which I am aware that allow such occurences."

That's just not true. The last PACT/Equity agreement I signed (Feb06) was 9 pages long, covering everything from pay, hours of work, meal breaks, travelling time, and anything else you can think of. All negotiated for us by Equity.

# 38: "Remember exploitation only happens if YOU feel exploited, "

You have it entirely the wrong way round. The condition of being exploited is *not* a voluntary mental state. It is an objective thing, and it's perfectly possible to be exploited without realising it. What's more, nothing suits an exploiter's purpose so well as their target thinking it's not happening.

You may be fine with no-pay now, thinking that the experience and contacts are getting you somewhere. And you may not feel exploited. But will you hold that opinion if after 10 years, you've done dozens of these projects for practically no money, and they never *did* move you closer to paid work? I've seen lots of little no-pay jobs comprise the entire career of a 40something actor. It was years before he really twigged what was happening to him, by which time it was too late to have a paying career. The people with money to give - the BBC casting people and the directors of funded theatre companies - discounted all the work he'd done.

Cheers
Sovay

• 17 years ago
• 30

dear tracey,

if I had a god, I'd ask him to bless you.

who wants to belong to a non-paid profession? it's ludicrous. the fact that it's at least partially self-inflicted makes it even more so.

see you, along with everyone else, on the checkout counter at tescos. bet I can do the job cheaper than you!

cliff x

• 17 years ago
• 31

Dear All,

Looking at who was last on this thread and when, it looks like we're all up in the wee small hours. (Getting in training for our Tesco night shifts, maybe.)

Anyway, I guess there's not much more I've got to say on the subject, but I will say this.

I think Sovay's 40 year-old actor's story is a sad one, but what's the point it's supposed to make? That pride is only allowed when there's a £ sign attached? Now there IS a sad world. I can't imagine having spent the last twenty years of my life doing work I wasn't proud of. Neither can I imagine people like Lil or Mark wasting their lives this way and I don't think their outlook has anything in common with Sovay's colleague; on the contrary they strike me as bright, dedicated actors who will give the business their best shot and who will know if and when it's time to cut free with no regrets. I hope that day never comes and wish them, and all those like them, every success.

For myself, I've had nearly twenty-five fun-filled years in this crazy profession. My career's travelled an unconventional path, it's true, but never in all that time did I find myself caring more about how much I earned than I did whether I was doing good work that pleased and enlightened me and the audiences that came to see it. Sometimes I worked gratis, but on other occasions I earned quite a lot. (Spent it, of course, every penny, and that was fun too…)

Best, KD.

• 17 years ago
• 32

I think Cliff and Tracey are providing sound advice and words of warning.
I think there has to be a cut off time where you say right I have done my stint on freebies show me the money :)

I also wonder why if I can raise capital for my theatre company to pay cast etc how come others don't/ can't?

Very interesting :)

• 17 years ago
• 33

Go get 'em Tiger!

(Now, what did I do with that list of jobs for the over 35s...?)

• 17 years ago
• 34

daytime. and woken up to the marvellous post from lilbinham. I quote:

"I would kill for a few more years under my belt because it seems that every employer is looking for actors over the age of 35 at the moment. Doors open up when you hit that age - if you choose to see them."

I laughed so much.

all the best,

cliff

• 17 years ago
• 35

Cliff,

Let's do a little maths here. I'd guess Lil will be thirty-five in around fifteen years. Yep, mate, you'll probably be around to see if she succeeds, so you might not want to laugh too soon.

And that's (probably) my final word on this subject.

Best, KD.

• 17 years ago
• 36

I have absolutely no doubt that Lil will be a huge success because she so clearly wants it so much. and in that respect we are entirely alike.

yes, I disagree with her choices but they are hers to make. my concern is that if those choices become the norm in this business, then the days of jobbing professional actors are numbered.

and in fifteen years, with a bit of luck, I'll be too old to care.

all the best,

cliff

• 17 years ago
• 37

Dear lilbinham

Re: #44 No I certainly do not intend to be patronising, nor am I being hypothetical and melodramatic.

The opinions I give are based on many years' experience as a jobbing actor, plus 10 years of working in an actors cooperative agency, talking to casting people in an agent's capacity, negotiating contracts and covering a great deal of work of both agency members and potential members, as well as having been very heavily involved with the NAC in the early 90's. So I have spoken to a good deal of casting directors and seen the career progression of very many actors.

So of course you can ignore my opinion and as Clifford says "it's healthy for a younger generation to rebel against older ones"
And please make your own choices and learn from your own experience.

However what I would say is be very careful what you sign when you are working for these no pay/low pay films companies. When you become a well known face you may find yourself feeling very exploited. If you have signed away all your rights and controls of your image you may end up feeling pretty sick, as your image appears on every TV station going and you receive no payment whatsoever, while the film makers make a good deal of money out of your face.

Wishing you every success.
Sovay

• 17 years ago
• 38

Having had no TV or film experience when I moved to London, I found that student films were a fantastic way of learning...and a place where it's ok to make mistakes...I've found Independant films are more likely to look at you if you've got a couple of student flicks behind you and also that feature directors will like to see both Independant and student...As long as you work hard and professionally even around total non-professionals then you keep integrity no matter what - surely? ALL the agents that I have met have also suggested that I get any TV or Film down on my CV no matter what it is...because casting directors are very unlikely (not impossible but...) to bring you in with little or no experience. As far as being paid for the film work I'm doing at the moment...would be nice but I'm working on great scripts with great people and doing what I love doing...ok I'm young and naive but being allowed to fulfil your gifts and what makes you happy is surely more important than buying that new car. :)

Ben

• 17 years ago
• 39

Very interesting debate indeed in which good points are made on both sides. On leaving drama school in '99, I did four profit share plays (2 of which I got zero and two of which I was paid for, although not very much)-I stopped doing profit share theatre in 2000, and will not go back to it for financial and geographical reasons. I never considered doing student/low budget films and my only screen experiences were historical drama/documentaries (featured but glorified extra work!)and a nicely paid gig for Sky (of the undercover actor variety). recently I was fortunate enough to be cast in a major film in a nice supporting role. If they get the names they want, it will go ahead in the summer. Well, I thought I'd better get some screen experience damn quickly, so have done four low budget/student shorts in the last six months. It also helped that my wife and I are having a baby soon, so I couldn't go on the road to tour. These films have given me some of the most rewarding experiences of my career thus far- a world war one film, including a 4O foot trench, on Salisbury plain (playing a German), a Western in a full size Western town (playing a foul mouthed Souther states bartender)and a Dr strangelove style war room (playing a war mongering colonel). I feel I have learned to feel comfortable on camera and it has rejuvenated my career confidence making me ready for the bigger challenge that awaits.

• 17 years ago
• 40