Student Short Films

I did a Short Film with some students at the University of Portsmouth earlier this year and although they've promised to send me a copy of the DVD I never got it. Emailed them left messages etc. but they've never bothered to send it. Very, very frustrating.

• 12 years ago
• 21

Thanks Lee - Mark you do rant....but you're 'generally' always right too, except "...Easier to get footage shot from scratch which focuses on you and your casting type!!" - I dont agree with that for reasons stated earlier, if you can tell me what my casting type is(without being rude) then your a better man than me!

I have to say, if your motivation for working with students is for money or because your expecting fantastic footage or shorts - in my experience, I have never come across a student short that matches an independent productions quality, bar one. which could have been very good if there weren't some fundamental errors in the overall arc of the short. Really as actors, working with students should be for your own development in-front of camera and for support and aid to the students - if your expecting more, than you should think twice about doing them.

A standard printable contract through sites like CCP would be very useful, I think if equity wants to provide one then that might be a start in helping the disilussioned ex members or artist's at the grass routes, I believe that was one of thier goals last time.

• 12 years ago
• 22

Hi Gay

- As in previous comments the person with clout is the head of that department, just pick up the phone and ring him/her and explain, or if you wish call the students and tell them thats what your going to do if you don't recieve it by xmas - thier students!!

:)

• 12 years ago
• 23

You miss the point completely Rob....I do not recall suggesting working in student films should be done only for money. Anymore than people with very little experience can possible give much back to film students.....give what back? An actor with years of TV and or Film experience could indeed give the students something back I suppose? What actors (inexperienced and or otherwise) give these students and the remarkably well paid film school is their valuable time and effort and skill, should they possess any. So it is more than reasonable to expect ones work and skills to be rewarded either with payment or at the very least a good edited copy of the work. Like I said earlier....if you want to work for free ....well that's another argument and equally worn out thread!

Your assumption that shooting specific footage to casting type and for the specifics of gaining attention from a prospective agent and or casting director is not possible...is naive and very wrong. I, and others have proved otherwise on many occasions. I have spoken to agents and directors and casting directors about just this....it is indeed a cost effective and a most useful way to put across your casting type for them to see in a short space of time.....cost effective (you only invest a day and you get your footage and edit as you would want it) In real terms the cost if you employ the right editor and split the cost with other actors, at the right price to do the shoot and edit, will gain you more attention than anything else. It is also a great deal more cost effective than waiting months and months for a DVD of dubious quality which more often than not, does not focus on you as an actor in the final edit in any case. I'd much rather be given just the rushes to edit with in most cases of student films.

Do you honestly believe good casting directors and good agents are not clever enough to distinguish good actors from bad actors without seeing them on screen in a well lit set on film which has been carefully processed and or colour graded...as opposed to being simply shot with good focus and sound. If you do....you underestimate the skill of the casting director and the business judgement of an experienced agent.

The casting director is tasked to find a type to a very specific brief from their clients....the agent is tasked with making the decision....will this actor make money for my agency. No amount of filmic feel to the showreel footage will fool either of them, I assure you! It is a dangerous career game to feel as actors - that we know better than them!!

As I carefully and fairly said in my last post......some of these student films can be very beneficial....there are good stories and bad stories......in my experience the ensuing struggle and endless waiting for dubious and low quality footage more often than not, is usually the story I am given by my clients!

The secret in shooting good quality footage from scratch...is for the actors to recognise their own casting range and type, all actors should be more than aware of that in any case....as well as the actors keeping their mini scene scripts short and simple. I can only shoot what I am asked to shoot, I might try and suggest...and I can direct....but at the end of the day it is the actor who is paying me, and their decision has to be final I guess.

If you only want to "gain experience in front of a camera".....then go do student films....but I am a little bored of seeing the same post shoot gripes afterwards. I enjoy these forums, and enjoy passing on whatever it is I have picked up over the years if it helps new actors. However, I feel it is our responsibility to pass on good and constructive advice, based on first hand experience, rather than.....assuming our opinions are 100% correct because of what we think is right!

30 seconds of you being just you on screen....will stand you in better stead than 4 mins of playing against type, age, and with the distraction of the focus being placed elsewhere in the scene. It's the reason many casting directors will leave a Fringe show at the half time interval. They came to see you and your type....and once they have seen that....they can leave.

I've seen many bad reels ...and I have seen some really good ones too. Just like a casting director and or agent will do....you simply run down the CV and check out the body of work....and who the actor has worked for....the proof is in the pudding I'm afraid....it's a ruthless cut throat competitive business...and all we can do as actors is make the best of ourselves and our type and casting range. I personally do not see Student films as the main or initial route to take, until the situation of money and or edits returned to the actors as promised is sorted out and properly in place. That surely has to be our goal as professional actors doesn't it?

We would all help ourselves and each other accordingly, by working professionally and in a business like manner from the off. Then we'd all be giving something back!

• 12 years ago
• 24

Well, an an actor gives back his knowledge of developing a character or a role, a good artist can steer a scene in unexpected ways, and artist can help a student directors approach to direction before or during a take. There are many things an experienced or even a lightly experienced actor can give.

I have a great deal of respect for the Casting Community, I understand how much value a good one can give to a Director or a Film, an under valued part of the whole Industry in many cases, I don't like the pigeon holing that goes on but I do understand the time constraints.

I think your differentiating between 'quality' footage and poorly graded footage, I think that's a choice Mark, if your happy to put something in because of a belief that it is a good piece of acting then you do that - some people like Tom Cruise and some don't! Its all a matter of opinion.

Being a Professional doesn't mean we lose site of why we started acting in the first place, just because one person plays a bit role on TV and another plays a role in a student film, doesn't make one better than the other in any way whatsoever - its about integrity.

• 12 years ago
• 25

Rob...forgive me....I do know what an actor does and what our job entails! Your opening paragraph of your last thread borders on patronising.

I'm glad you have respect for the casting community, and understand pigeon holing...though I do not belive I accused you of not having respect either? So I found that comment confusing.

Neither am I differentiating between poorly graded footage and quality footage at all....just the opposite actually. I still belive you missed the point!

I certainly have not lost site of why I started acting either which I thought was also bordering on patronising too! Where did I suggest anywhere that having a bit part on TV makes you a better actor than one who has a part in a student film.....thats the job of the established agent. They most certainly will make that differentiation when looking through a CV! Your comments struk me as someone - who started the thread - by saying he had done a lot of student films this year is perhaps feeling the need to stand up for why you needed or wanted to do that? If you want to do a lot of student films, that's up to you....I certainly never made personal comment on "your" decision to do that. I've done them, we all have...I think you are being a bit precious on that subject!

Neither did I try and suggest who has integrity and who does not? If you want to take roles in Student Films because they fulfil you as an actor, I certainly do not have a problem with your career choices and nowhere did I suggest otherwise. My issue is with giving my effort and time in return for NO FOOTAGE....yes I do have an issue with that...and it was that which myself and others made comment on, because as I stated earlier, one may as well stand in front of Curries shop window!

On the other hand if you feel you are happy, and have the time to pass on your knowledge, time and skill to student film makers ...and you are not worried about seeing the results....or whatever....well if that cranks your handle, or you feel that gives you greater integrity over someone who sees that as being taken advantage of....that's up to you. There are equally plenty of actors out there who have come on these forums and stated they refuse to work for nothing. Does that mean they have no integrity? I would suggest it may give them greater integrity in the long run!

The thread was started (by you) about "the way actors are treated" on student films and I centred my comments on getting the footage and what some of the footage is like when and if you do get it back from student projects. I ranted...because many actors are taken as mugs without contract, or professional agreement, because many actors behave like mugs and do not dare to even ask for one. I totally understand the desire, but often blind desperation takes over! My comments were not aimed at you or anyone else personally!

Many of the comments within the thread related to not being able to get the showreel footage.....and I should have thought if you did a survey Rob, that is the reason "most" actors would take part in student films unless you have plenty of time on your hands and plenty of other income to support yourself.

It is much easier to get a role in a student film than it is a "bit part" on mainstream TV or film.....the whole purpose of CCP in general is that it opens up a wider range of acting opportunity as a secondary source of work or experience ....from that of the highly competitive mainstream work opportunities from mainstream agents and casting dep's.

My main reason for being on CCP is certainly not to find other acting work.....I rarely even bother to look at the jobs board to be quite honest......that's not me trying to sound big headed, I just don't chose to work for nothing all the time, or take work which is offering me a rate 80% less than it should be....without contract or insurance etc. I do gain showreel work and other opportunities from the site.....and it is a fun platform to have ones say as well!

I don't know you Rob, I read your posts from time to time along with everyone else's....and I make comment on subjects which I feel I have first hand experience on...or feel strongly about. I'll take issue with some of the downright bad advice offered on here at times. That is the purpose of this and any other democratic forum. If someone disagrees because they can prove me wrong or know different....I am the first to back down. I only base my views and or offer advice based on first hand experience. I am a realist, I say it as it is, and perhaps some of my directness might not always suit others.....and some of what I say may grate with others. However, what I would never do is criticise or make comment on what an actor should see as integrity, and or why they are an actor.....I would find that bordering on arrogant.

• 12 years ago
• 26

Mark I wasn't patronising you, why would I do that? :)

This is going off on a tangent - I understand you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate that, hell, if I was perfect I wouldn't even be on this site, but I'm not and I make mistakes as much as anyone else. I am not arrogant but I do think I have enough knowledge to state an opinion, It is difficult blogging without being missconstrued, as in anything, you read into it what your assumptions are based on your own experience's and judgment of the other person without having ever met them.

I actually understood you quite clearly but obviously we're just not on the same track, maybe if we met you might find we're actually speaking from the same hymn book, or Torah or Koran - lol you might think Im a Christian fanatic if I mention Hymn books, please don't make the assumption that I am, don't get me wrong I like hymn books, especially Ave Maria, but that doesn't mean that I don't like Amazing Grace,Jerusalem or Holy, Holy, Holy!!!


:)

• 12 years ago
• 27

Yes ...it is going off at a tangent! No problem at all Rob....of course we are all entitled to our opinions...and we all stand up for what we belive in...we all pay the membership fees after all!

I'm more "mazel tov" BTW!

Wish you well....and everyone else.

• 12 years ago
• 28

One thing that is drilled into students is getting the Artist Release form signed.

This can be used as a makeshift contract.
Ask them how long they think it will take to get to DVD or finished file, lets say one month.

Where you sign just add "upon condition of receiving a copy of the film within two months of the above date"
You can ask them to sign too, but it doesn't really matter if they don't, as your conditioned release is there in black and white.

• 12 years ago
• 29

Thanks for very valuable advices.

• 12 years ago
• 30

Just to pick up on the question of the Equity standard form - Equity cannot be seen to endorse any form of contract that waives your rights as a worker to payment, and so there is a limited degree to which the Union can endorse e.g. a contract that solely offers, say, a DVD as recompense, but they do offer good policy guidelines on student films (admitedly not very well publicised - which is really one fundamental problem with Equity and needs to be rectified).

Here you will see that the preamble offers very solid advice on protecting your rights as an actor when you first agree to take on a shoot (and is extremely close to what Mark actually suggested in his so called 'rant'), and that there is some detail given on how your (technical) entitlement to NMW works. There is also good (and legally defined) advice on what you can do in the event that e.g. students cancel on you.

It is clear that many actors are not prepared to actually go to the lengths of taking a film school to a tribunal when e.g. a film is cancelled on them and they are not restituted a fee for wasted effort - and that, I think, is every actor's choice - but the point remains that Equity has a policy on such matters, and doesn't expect you to simply moan about it for the next nine months as if absolutely nothing can be done.

Finally, a template contract drawn up by Equity has been made available, and is there for you to print out and hand over to the school/student when you take on a job. It is to be noted that this is not Equity's student rate contract - this is actually a step down again - it is a contract that is designed to show you are eligible for NMW and a copy of the DVD, and has been created by Equity in recognition of the fact that the full rate is virtually uneforceable at the moment without extensive negotiation (or a compliant school!). It is at the point of handing over this template that difficulties may well arise as the school/student maintains that they are not employing you on the basis of an Equity sponsored initiative and that, I think, is why the preamble is even more broad - it simply asks that, in the event that the best you can hope for is expenses and a copy of the DVD, you make sure you have as much formal backing in place as possible to ensure you recieve those things in due course of time.

The Equity form actually stresses that you are entitled to all of the following whenever you work on a student film:

1. NMW

2. The employer being limited in how they are able to use your footage without negotiated agreement - mainly so they cannot make profit out of it at your expense without re-negotiation with you.

3. Guaranteed working hours

4. A DVD copy of the film.

Whether the school will agree to abide by these rulings is another question, but they all have some legal validity. The form has, I think, only been available since earlier this year so it may not be that surprising that many actors have missed it.

In many ways, if you baulk at the idea of using such a formal and legally binding document, then Mark's suggestion may also be valid: draw up your own contract in line with your own demands and see if you can utilise *that*.

The point I was making earlier is that if Equity could actually win a significant action against film school exemption then the question of whether such contracts have force or not would be rendered irrelevant, because they would *have* to be in force, legally. So long as film schools can claim exemption from paying workers, there will always be difficulties with winning agreement from them that you should be paid, but it is as well to know your rights - and certainly, the advice given in the preamble, which is about what you can do from the comfort of your own home, to shore yourself up against negligence, is useful for everyone.

See http://www.equity.org.uk/documents/guidelines-for-working-on-student-films/

Doing student films for the sake of 'giving something back' to the students (and the industry in general) is actually a very commendable attitude, but it's fair to say that most actors can't afford that sort of largesse and are, indeed, doing student films for the sake of the footage for showreel (and possibly to cut their teeth on shooting minor films before they transition to features/TV etc.).

In my opinion, however, establishing (even nominal) payment for student films would actually benefit most parties concerned: the actors would be able to earn, the status of the student films they shoot become recognised as being more 'professional', and they would be able, more magnanimously, to give of their time and energy because paid, and the students would probably be eliciting better performances from less discontented actors. So, I think these questions of payment and artistic integrity fall and rise together.

• 12 years ago
• 31

just to add my two penn 'orth. Please note this is based on individual experiences and does not necessarily reflect an institution as a whole.

LCC amazingly professional, passionate, dedicated and organised.

NFTS - so, so, a director who did not deign to speak to supporting actors, and did not send promised DVD

UWL - only went for the audition. Absolute sh*t show. One of the directors didn't turn up, the other one told me he hadn't slept all night because of some project or other. They clearly had had half an hour of directing / acting techniques, and seemed to think emotion memory was the only way to direct stuff. Script was half baked an not sent in advance

NYFA - disorganised but made them sign a contract to give me a DVD copy which appeared very quickly (there was a financial penalty in the contract if I didn't receive it). Only did this because their lack of organisation gave me no confidence in them.

• 12 years ago
• 32

Talking of tangents...

"Go and stand in front of a Curries or Jessops shop window if you want to just stand in front of a camera all day for nowt!!"

Brilliant idea! Want to know what you look like on camera and whether or not it's picking up your inner torment or whether you look like you are suppressing a fart? Go to Comet!

Cheap as chips learning curve. :-)

• 12 years ago
• 33

PS, regarding 'giving back'. So long as you are not a complete newby to acting I think you can easily 'give back' to students who want to learn how they should act around actors and what is expected of them etc. Just don't become a complete know-it-all and irritant.

I've only had good experiences on student projects and that's because I respect they are still learning.

Learning that actors need to be paid is just something the schools should add to their curriculum.

• 12 years ago
• 34

Wow, that was a nice comment to see after a few pints - bet you had a few too!

The Trust Gap: Why People Are So Cynical
cynical

How do people come to believe that others are so much less trustworthy than themselves?

Much as we might prefer otherwise, there's solid evidence that, on average, people are quite cynical about human nature.

When thinking about strangers, studies have shown that people think others are more selfishly motivated than they really are and that others are less helpful than they really are.

Whatever your gripe Tricia, it was my thread because I wanted to share my experience and help, right or wrong.

The more you get used to the camera the better your chance when you have an audition infront of camera for something important, - when you have long breaks you can get rusty, thats what I believe anyhow from my experience, ohh look I put 'from my experience', I did that at the start too.

I saw your 'showreel' - God I could be nasty, but I'm not, and you obviously are, I found you very funny :)

I have clips of recent things I have done on my page, I have done other things too, why don't you have a look at

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-man-who-killed-christ/4od#2933850

or

http://www.opensecretseason.co.uk/brokenheart/video.htm

or watch Stephen Poliakkoffs the Tribe, or watch the episode of Kavanagh I 'featured' in with the late John Thaw, Bill Nighy, Warren Mitchel then come back and tell me if I have nothing to say or offer. You or any of the other cronies on here will never stop me from speaking my mind, giving my thoughts, whether its on CCP or not.

I don't have an agent because I had two substandard ones and decided I would rather build up my portfolia and find a good one when I feel ready to give 100%. Not because of being 'disenfranchised' or not good enough. Luck is so important in this game, there is nothing unique about you, you were lucky thats all.

Good Luck

• 12 years ago
• 35

Pardon?? Have you had a sense of humour failure or what. I think you need to go look at yourself and lighten up.

As you put it, you've had a few so willing to forgive.

• 12 years ago
• 36

Perhaps I should have read that in full properly before responding. I think seeing the word 'gripe', which is nothing anyone who knew me would ever accuse me of, made me miss a point or few in there.

I have no gripes, I simply like to help people out in all areas of my life and work and so what's wrong with that?

Maybe I have been lucky, but I happen to think not at all, but I genuinely think some students just need a bit of help. And although I do actually think I might stop at a jessops (other brands available) it was intended to provoke funny images in people's heads.

Not sure where I went wrong in leading you to such a wrong interpretation?

All I can say is, no matter what life throws at me I'm old enough now to be comfortable in who I am and to make jokes in a forum where I assume most people will chuckle.

Not everyone gets hammered on a Friday night and some of us, albiet 2am, are doing a little late night work, I'm sorry to dissappoint you on that one too! x

• 12 years ago
• 37

"AWK-waaaarrrdd"

Oh, there I go again, bringing up sex/religion/poltics when I know I shouldn't, shame on me for killing the conversation!

Tricia I know your a lovely lass, dont worry about it we will have that drink! - and then start the conversation all over!!!!

Take care.

Robx

• 12 years ago
• 38

Hey Rob,

No worries. Your heart is in the right place, you just don't know me or my mind... yet!

Happy weekend x

• 12 years ago
• 39

Thanks for all your posts, as I am just starting to do this and finding that I could use some guidance on who to ignore and who to work with.

Dx

• 12 years ago
• 40