Time for a band new jobs rating system?

Private User

Actor

Seems to me we need a new 21st century system which pleases both the “I want to work - even for nothing - to build up my credits, footage and experience” ….actors….as well as “you should not work for nothing all the time…as it affects all of us” actors.

I think there is no doubt that we have all worn out the various discussion boards with these observations over the years, but it is a fact, we can see the business and structure of payment for actors shifting ever downwards, to quite often ZERO! Despite all the efforts of our now “open shop” union, its never seems to get any better!

The open shop ruling by Maggie Thatcher opened the flood gates as far as Non union payments and a greater competitive market than ever for Equity members….like it wasn't hard enough already!

We have 1000's of new drama schools churning out 1000's of wide eyed bushy tailed new actors. Film schools churning out loads of over charged new film makers and crew! More and more casting directors workshops, how to get more work workshops. Even major TV co's getting away with murder by emplying freebi extras or cast ……its all getting very crowded, disjointed and a downright amateurish free for all status…. to the point of collapse!

There has been a mild implementation of talk of protection of actors systems; we even had CCP asking for JOBS POSTERS to join the protection of actors etc….but it would seem pretty pointless as the POA was started by CCP in the first place!! Apologies CCP and all casting websites….but there are 1000's of your members who vehemently disagree with you advertising the no pay jobs which should be paying “something”

CCP will rightfully argue they held a vote a while ago and that the majority wanted no pay opportunities as well. If that is so….that's fine….majority must rule and all that. However, I am not arguing about the advertising of free jobs…I am arguing against the jobs which should not be free or no pay who are using actors for nothing....coz they can!!

Yesd I have heard the "ahh buit its a free market" argument till I am blue in the face with it and sick of hearing it to be honest!!

We still need a new system which encompasses the needs of all actors, and workers within the industry!

Lets be totally clear about the background to all this; older or more experienced actors with good credits and a fuller CV do not want to see jobs which should be paid, going to other actors simply because those jobs are not paying and therefore many actors are not prepared to do them…but see themselves undercut by actors who are not worried about earning money, or because they have tuppeny halfpenny agents telling their clients “its work and you really should take it!” ….or actors who are simply doing it all for a laugh or whatever.

It is a fact this is all driving wages for actors and crew, ever downwards. Its become one unholy free for all mess! Sorry “Unions” I do accept you are doing your best, however, I fear you have lost control! Unions. All of us have seen the demise of the closed shop, but not done anything about it quick enough to modernise and protect the membership or ourselves more effectively, other than to bleat about poorly attended meetings – or bang on and on about minor rule changes instead of dealing with the fundimentles.

Actors are crying about the training they paid for, and how unfair it all is that an untrained actor can get work, actors with rich Mums and Dads are working for free, and watering down the status of the industry to the point of nothing more than amateur status! Certain Indie film makers are using free website templates and building themselves up to be to be major production companies, yet they still advertise acting roles and crew jobs with “you will be fed and watered!” For F...KS sake....I can go into a field and eat grass if I want to be fed and watered for my living!

Film schools are charging as much as 6k “per term” and still not paying actors to be in student films....claiming some charity loophole. NMW experts are running around like headless telling us hiow unfair it is ......WE KNOW!!!!!

ENOUGH……please….it's gone out of control and something has to change!

FILM MAKERS EMPLOYERS ETC:
I don't have any problem or issue with collaborative projects where by money is not paid, but all services are "professionally" provided on the basis of: our skills ‘n kit - in return for project completion and decent footage. That is a fair trade on paper!

Shooting people website members and all Indie Film makers will surely agree? What actors do not want to see is Indie film makers “paying” for kit and drinks and one or two actors or an important DOP….whilst other equally important cast and crew are getting nowt being told there is no budget for actors!!! ….not just cast….the runners and editors etc etc…..this all effects crew/stage hands just as much as actors!

However, I accept there are actors who DO want to work for nothing! Perhaps one is starting out, or for many, perhaps this is the only work they can get maybe? Don't shout at me or get nasty..…tiz a fact!

I do recognise in these current days of Non closed shop, we have a massive pot of hungry actors and crew desperate to work. Same with film makers and play writers, crew and stage hands all wanting to get going.

Therefore, we all need a new system which encompasses all needs, is fair to everyone and stays within the law. In short, we all need protection from those who claim there is no budget when there is, or jolly well should be!! We also need protection from being undercut all the time too.

I believe I have an answer! I may be wrong….but read on with an open mind if you have not dropped off already!

I raised this gently a while ago, and was shouted down by Equity on that forum!! I would like to see the introduction of a JOBS GRADING SYSTEM. I believe this will, or could, cover both theatre and TV and FILM makers, production Co's actors and crew alike

FOR EXAMPLE
Lets take ACTOR A: Actor A trained at Drama school, got a lot of paid work and has generally been able to earn a living at acting.

ACTOR B: Did not train as such, committed to acting as a living, worked out a sort of apprenticeship of acting and learning as they went if you will….but is now just as experienced as actor B. Might not know as much about the classics and or Musical theatre as the trained Actor A…but no matter….they don't want that type of work in any case…..happy to leave that for the trained actor A's or the director who feel that only trained Actor A types will do!

Actor C: Trained or untrained no matter…..just wants to pad their CV out regardless. If they can get some dosh…Ok that's cool….but really feels since leaving drama school….or not….that they must all work for nothing regardless of project or what other actors are telling them.

ACTOR A and ACTOR B: Is also represented by a worthy agent who won't entertain non paying jobs.

ACTOR C: Has an agent who is sadly from the group of ever growing….never get any auditions for our clients but tells them to work for free in order to make their client list look busy and so on!
I know….bit simplistic…..but bear with me!

JOBS GRADING SYTEM HOW IT WORKS:
JOB 1: Actor or Crew required for a paying production…Film or Theatre: Paying standard agreed rates, or at least "good/proper" rates in any case. GRADE 1 ….or G1 rating woudl be given both for the production company and for the actor/crew to be shown on his or her CV

Ie:
ROLE: Smithy
FILM OR PLAY TITLE: The returning
PRODUCTION Co: Blah blah LTD
DIRECTOR: Jon Smith
ACTING ROLE/JOB VERIFIED RATING G1
For the company on above Job
PRODUCTION CO: Blah blah Ltd
DIRECTOR: Jon Smith
FILM OR PLAY TITLE: The retuning
PRODUCTION VERIFIED RATING G1

JOB 2: Non paid…. 100% Collaboration project.
ROLE: Smithy
FILM OR PLAY TITLE: The retuning
PRODUCTION Co: Blah blah LTD
DIRECTOR: Jon Smith
ACTING ROLE/JOB VERIFIED RATING G2
Same for the company….verified with an official rating of G2

JOB 3: Indie film, Fringe, group of mates….whatever….no payment no fees for anybody.
ROLE: Smithy
FILM OR PLAY TITLE: The retuning
PRODUCTION Co: Blah blah LTD
DIRECTOR: Jon Smith
ACTING ROLE/JOB VERIFIED RATING = G3
Same for the company ….the project can only be rated G3

With all jobs: An officially approved contract can be simply laid out and signed by actors and crew etc….that the undersigned within this production understand that this is a G1 or G2 or G3 rated production.

Then on our CV's we can see who has a CV full of verified G1 jobs etc……the casting director, the producers, the directors can all see at an instant who is rated with what.

An actor with only G3 rated credits can at anytime work on a G1 rated project if the directors want him/her to play that role….and he/she may even get the role when put up against 4 other trained actors despite their massive G1 ratings on the CV!! That covers the open shop system we have to live with.

Spotlight can still put a break on say: 5 G1 ratings only before membership is granted etc etc CCP: Can state the same if they wish…..or 3 x G1 rates must be proven before CCP membership granted or even…..3 x G3 rates or no rates whatever…..that's up to the likes of CCP, who are purporting to be a Professional casting site. Casting call PRO after all, so one woudl expect to see some osrt of bonifide G rating being required!

Starnow and the countless others out there can all impliment the same system with G1 to G3 ratings...or not....ist totally up to them, and the actors to decide if its worthwhile joining or not! Whoever the casting site is….the jobs they advertise should have to provide a signed contract which testifies to the G rating of that job though....then we all know where we stand from the off.

ie: Take a CCP JOB LISTING example
We are a group of Students from “such ‘n such” film school and we need an actor to play the role of Smithy……the job is G3 rating……end of! It's that simple, if as an actor you have been told it's a G3 job…..your choice. Or if it's to be a G1 rating "paid" role…..then the same official standard contract will have to be signed by everyone concerned…inc Students, Actors and CCP prior to advertising the role.

THE PURPOSE OF ALL THIS:
At an instant one can look at a CV or a Companies Production portfolio and see straight away what you are dealing with. Therefore the knock on effect is obvious to me: as an actor, as a production Company, as an agent, as a director, as a stage hand, film crew, ….quite literally anyone: can chose if they want lots of G1 status on their CV or portfolio or a mix of G1 to G3…seems likely to me that we would all want as much G1 status as possible.

The nitty gritty of all this is this: Who are casting directors going to take more notice of on a CV? Those with G1 ratings or a CV packed out with G3……they may wish to only scan the G3 listings…..that's fine its up to them! The G3 actors might shout, that's not fair…..but it is. If you want to achieve mostly G1 ratings…..work at getting them then!

Likewise if I am a production Co, I want to show the industry I have as much G1 status in my portfolio as I can, as this will attract those actors and crew with G1 status to want to work with me. If I only have a G3 portfolio in general…..would as many G1 cast and crew want to come and work for me. If they do, that's up to them…..the system means there is nothing stopping them at all. Is that not what we all need?!
Also; might a production Co wanting G1 status….not have to re-think their financial planning a little harder….and in order to achieve the G1 rating? They will have to provide G1 contracts to “everyone” …..and I mean everyone!!

It's possible this system may also require a NON G rating as well G3 would cover collaboration where as no G rating at all would mean just that.

It's up to the production Co's to achieve their G rating, and that may well mean upping the standards and payments accordingly.

WHO OVERSEES IT:
Well true….that is something that needs a lot of strategic planning and fine tuning I grant you. It would involve officials from Equity and Bectu, MU and so on, maybe the film council, casting websites, crew and actors. Perhaps a whole new movement…….who understand and completely recognise we are in a democratic…..open shop….21st century world. The industry is rapidly going down the pan for many working and committed professionals who want to only really have a G1 status or rating within the industry and or on thier CV's. Those who are not worried about having a G3 rating or status would not be excluded or prevented from joining in, or starting out at all.

I have thought that it might take a brand new body of carefully elected individuals and representatives to form this new Grade System body. Ha…we could call it the “The G SPOT”

Joking aside, would a system like this not offer all members of the industry far more protection by the simple fact and nature of us all mostly wanting G1 status respectively?

Equity would probably say: Hang on, we do that...we protect you! Sadly ….no…..you do not always do that. Equity might try very hard, but they can only do so much these days.

I believe, there are many of us actors, and crew alike, committed professionals, who feel we are all been taken for a ride now. It's gone far enough, we accept we are in a recession, but we won't be for ever, and we will still need to be protected.

I totally accept the tuning and wide amount of work that would be needed to make this work, but I am certain with the right people and with the willingness of all those concerned, that I truly have something here?

Ladies and Gentlemen, I offer you “The G SPOT!”

Discuss……nicely huh!!!

11 years ago
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Jeannette Tucker

Actor

"The Money suggests: "Give in: I can get anybody to act, you have no power," and the artistic guilds seem to perceive some truth in this suggestion, thus weakening their position. They might reflect that anyone can drive a truck."
David Mamet, Bambi vs. Godzilla

There are plenty of jobs that anyone can do, anyone can be prime minister, but in most of them people expect to be paid.

11 years ago
61

charles delaney

Actor, Singer

...Yesch...The Met Film School !
I've just called them because one of their crew still owe me £125 which is 4 weeks overdue!!(Despite my agent's chasing them with emails & phone calls ect. It's not the biggest amount owed but it's the principle ofcourse!)
Probably have to get Equity involved if it's not resolved by tomorrow AM.
Apparently this is happening to quite a number of actors on various shoots at the Met Film School according to the person I've just spoken to there!!
The head of faculties is looking into the matter.
So getting paid work is one thing...Getting paid is another!
Have to say though, the previous shoot I did with them was paid promptly so it's down to the individual crew but they all go to school at the same place!
A seperate issue to graded work is grading who are good & bad payers!!
'Pole'

11 years ago
62

User Deleted

This profile has been archived

Sorry if I was going off on a tangent. I don't actually believe for one second that anyone can do this job, but if you take away any need for regulation or qualification, how can you argue otherwise? Jeanette quoted David Mamet, who said anyone can drive a truck. I think Mamet also wrote something very similar to "anyone can be an actor" in True and False. My point is, not anyone can drive a truck. You have to be taught, then you have to get a license, and then this license has to be continually renewed. I'm not sure if you earn more than NMW, but I suspect you might. As someone pointed out on another thread, you can kill with a truck but it's really difficult to kill by being a rubbish actor, however you can cost production companies lots of time and money. Anyone can be Prime Minister? I suppose so, although I still think you need some kind of qualification to be taken seriously. A thoroughly inebriated fellow on the tube on Saturday evening asked me if I'd vote for him if he ran for political office. I asked him what his policies were. As he didn't have any, I let him down as gently as I could. I don't think he'll ever be Prime Minister. I'm definitely going off on a tangent now...

Maybe I have misunderstood the thrust of your thread Mark. Your ultimate goal, I guess, is to eliminate the lower tiers of the profession who don't pay union rates, either because their work is deemed to be of inferior quality or because they are exploiting actors. And presumably then, the well-financed production companies will step forward and fill this void? I don't think they will, there'll just be less work around in general, that's only my opinion. What this G-spot system will do, however, is further demonise actors whose only crime is to be passionate enough about their chosen career path to want to actually do it as opposed to (in fact, quite often in addition to) sit in call centres or wait tables, and worse still, give them even fewer opportunities. It's not like the majority of actors who work on the fringe or on no-budget films don't want to be paid, its not like they're not trying to get these G1 jobs. But a few of them actually like acting, and want to do it for reasons beyond the dollars and cents. I don't believe that liking acting and pursuing it as a career have to be mutually exclusive. Maybe I'm supremely naive in that respect. Agreed, a lot of low and no paid work is poor, but a lot of it is really good. If the only yardstick you're using to judge this is the financial one, then that's what I really object to.

What if - to pick on a school totally at random - the Met Film School was forced to pay their actors proper above Equity rates, say a good £300 a day? Would this work then be considered G1 status, even if the finished product was less than not very good? Would casting directors take this work more seriously? Hmmm, I suppose they would, because as it's well paid and carries the G-spot seal of approval, competition for the jobs would be stronger, and therefore the actor who gets the part would be better. Everybody wins. Bugger. I've started having a debate with myself, and what's worse I'm losing...

11 years ago
63

Jeannette Tucker

Actor

Ed, I think the point is not that people can walk off the street and become a truck driver but anyone can learn if they put the in time and effort.

Very few people can start acting careers without any training what so ever. Even projects that use "non-actors" will have an audition process that means only those who can produce some sort of performance will be given roles. If anyone could really do it we would not bother with auditions at all.

I think Mamet's point is that anyone can act but only in so much as anyone can do most jobs. For some reason this is a used as and excuse to pay actors less and actors tend to accept this rather than pointing out the fact anyone can become a producer or a director as well.

11 years ago
64

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No Ed...my aim is not to eliminate any work at all!

It's got nothing do with what must be a better actor, show, film or anything! I don't understand you thinking the lower budget stuff wont continue......but it might just make crew and actors think about what work they do under a graded system....it might also make prod Co's sharpen up too, and in order to retain a G1 rating for thier projects....they will have to pay up.

I have never suggested or stated that grading a job by financial definition makes the project any less worthwhile creatively....but lets be perfectly frank; In general the G1 work will almost certainly be the higher standard of work....and we all know that if we are honest. Further more if production Co's start to lean more to G1 rated actors and crew....great...the industry will improve and we'll all have to be a lot sharper to retain a much more professional status.

Your met film school example: This is what is so often overlooked. There are already proper agreements and rates of payment scales set in place....but many film schools and other organisations are deliberately flouting these rates regardless of the law. However, if you do a Student film, and it was properly contracted and your payment was received, that becomes a G1 job on your CV! If I am in the same film, and I don't get paid, it's a G3 listing on my CV....if I chose to put it on the CV that is! I will have known the G3 rating to the role from the job listing, and so I will have had the choice to do that or not right from the off! The actual quality of the film is irrelevant to the argument! Casting can decide that when they see the footage....and so can the actor...should the footage arrive of course!! Nobody is being demonised!!

Do you not see how the professional status of the actor becomes better defined under such a system? Do you not feel, that Production Co's who are happy to state....there is no pay....will not be happy to state this is a G3 rated job?

Either we are saying the majority of actors and crew are serious about their profession or not? If the majority are not....well then that's that I guess!!

Are you saying you are happy to show any credit on a CV....but not if its G3 rated? Why not?!!! I challenge any of you to answer that truthly. A graded system does not prevent you from doing the work though.

To continue ignoring the need for professional status in any industry is economic naivety on many levels. If people don't believe that....I suggest they scan the 100's of rants and rave section of threads.....open there ears to what is almost the sole topic of conversation in the waiting rooms at castings, and in the pubs! The majority, I believe, is sick of earning and or being offered nothing and or seeing their industry merge and dissolve to a free for all status....but nobody is willing to collectively do anything about it!! Seems to me the ones dead against this....are simply saying but I am frightened I wont ever get any G1 rated work, if I have to show a lot of G3 rated work on my CV?

11 years ago
65

Private User

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...oops...copied and pasted the uncorrected version....I know typos offend some!!

11 years ago
66

Judy Clifton

Actor

Simply, it's all about earning a living, isn't it? Yes - lovely to have a dabble in a G3 production if you need showreel footage (and you're taking a punt with the outcome of the quality) or you want to notch up experience (stage or film), to oil your acting cogs or you'd like to stretch yourself with a different type of character etc. Nothing arguable about that.

But if you are a PROFESSIONAL actor, you need to earn a LIVING wage. (Sorry to shout but I am trying to define the difference and there are no italics available.) IT is your chosen occupation. And that's why decent G1 acting work is paid so well in comparison to jobs outside the industry: not only because you are uniquely right for the role (we are, after all, all unique in this context) and worth it with what you bring to the role, but to cover you for those times when you are out of work. It has ever been thus. Value yourselves.

A professional actor has acting as his/her profession. Ergo: it's not a part-time hobby. It's not just a bit of fun. It's not something to have to supplement with soul-waning dead-end day jobs. Leave that sort of acting work to the amateurs. Goodness me, there are enough of them! Why should we encroach on their domain any more than we would be thrilled to welcome them in ours?

That's not to denigrate or insult amateur actors; far from it. I am merely drawing a necessary line between amateur status and professional status. Not to demonstrate any type of superiority, either, so please don't deliberately misunderstand that premise. It's a question of professionals needing to earn a living by being paid properly for what we do.

If a company wants actors for projects and doesn't wish to / have the means with which to pay them appropriately, then they should use amateurs.

Proof of the pudding, were proof necessary: 2 days ago, I turned down the offer of a great, fun job which I would genuinely have loved to do (for a young director I love and admire), at a well-known and prestigious off-West End venue. Reason: 7 weeks work for £300. I'd have loved to do it. Can I afford to? No, I absolutely cannot afford to supplement a pitiful wage with a credit card. That £300 would barely have covered travel expenses within London. Does it hurt to turn down work...? You bet. But that's my stand and my choice to make that stand.

What I'd really like to see would be sites offering excusively G1, G2 or G3 work so we wouldn't have to sift through every grain of sand to find the pearl. Please pay heed, CCP. P = Professional. A profession is work for which one is paid.

Apologies for bashing on at length but I feel very strongly about this whole debate. Again, I extend plaudits to Mark for sticking his neck out. If only we all did the same.

11 years ago
67

Private User

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Hi Mark,

I can't post on the forum, as I'm not a paid member on the site - because most of the time its not worth the fee...

I have one idea that I think may help one aspect of the unpaid issue that I think someone's already made in passing. Student Films: Lots of actors do these for showreels - as it is very hard to get a film/tv casting without one. It would be great if there was a way film schools could team up with drama schools, on which everyone working on it is a student. I know there are some drama schools(including mine!) that have film making departments, that could easily work together to create films, that could then be edited for showreel material. I know there are obviously some problems with this - both logistically, and actors who haven't trained. But could solve the student film issue at least!
=======================
Hi Phoebe,
I have had the same idea for ages! I was speaking about it to students at LFS only the other week, where I was working on a student film. I was paid very well for the job, and it was a lovely opportunity and a very good role which will look great, as it was shot on film etc.

However, the trouble is a lot of the film students want very experienced actors, or at least actors with as much experience as possible to bring their films to life. Without sounding smug, the project I just did was just myself and another actor.....apart from the characters ages, both roles would have been at risk with two actors of lesser experience. Every take had to be in one due to film stock being at a premium, and apart from than that, the students needed a lot of help - which I find the norm on student films! Drama students would not have worked on that occasion.

Where I believe there is benefit, is as practice, as you say, there should definitely be more correlation between drama schools and films schools as both sets of students go through their training time. The students at the film school, don't even get to go out onto professional film sets and shadow working pro's for a weeks experience, they don't get anywhere enough "guided" practice on film kit kit nor with working with actors......as you say this could be done with Drama students who equally need filming experience. On the whole though, that would not solve the not getting paid issue, unless the Drama students insisted on some payment, but then the Film students might insist on payment when they film the drama students too! At least that would teach both sets of students that's how it "should" work in the real professional world!

11 years ago
68

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