Who wouldn't make it now?

Here's a question: who, of the many great actors of the last few generations, wouldn't stand a chance in today's acting profession?

I thought it'd be an interesting topic to discuss how the business has changed and the sort of actors it's producing (or not).


  • 15 years ago
  • 3,616
  • 41
Hugh Osborne
Actor

Hmm.. not sure I was calling for the return of the closed shop, but there we are. And I also thought my answer was in the spirit of Sally's original question. But - in no way trying to be more or less light-hearted than the next person, it's demonstrably untrue that only pretty boys make it today: Ken Stott, Jim Broadbent, Richard Griffiths, Simon Russell Beale etc etc. (Or from the younger generation, Ben Whishaw, Benedict Cumberbatch.) I know, as Joe Jackson once said, it's different for girls, but that's a whole other question...

A big light-hearted load of love and hugs to all.

xx


  • 15 years ago
  • 21
Lee Ravitz
Actor

In the same spirit of light-heartedness - I'd beg to disagree :)

It is one thing to say that 'character' actors of one stripe or another continue to exist and do well within the industry (there will always be the need for *some* to flourish, and there has always been a concomitant industry emphasis on the fact that a certain primacy is accorded not to casting characters, but to casting matinee idols who fill the lead roles). This has always been the case in the industry - because all good drama tells a story, and in a story, we like our heroes to be aspirational (so they must be cast better looking, better muscled, better groomed than the majority of us), and we like our villains to be unpleasant, our fools to be stupid and so on (so they must be cast preferably uglier, more dishevelled, colder, more homely etc. than the majority). Every generation has its 'pretty boys' who get by on looks as much as talent (this is as old as Valentino!) - some combine phenomenal talent with good looks (Peter O'Toole, say) - and there are always character actors to support. In recent generations, we have been lucky to have seen a little more attempt at making our 'heroes' ambiguous, which may lead to roles being taken by, say, a Cumberbatch rather than a Colin Firth.

BUT that the industry has closed ranks against a wider prevalence of 'characterful' casting seems to me undeniably true. One has only to look at the sort of students who are represented at drama schools to realise what is considered 'saleable' in the industry, and how much it accords with the dictum that all casting these days aspires to the condition of Hollyoaks. I cannot fail to look at the leading players in the industry in, say, the late 60's, and be struck by the fact that MOST of them would hardly be snapped up by drama schools or agents today. Would individuals as idiosyncratic as Oliver Reed, Peter Sellers, Warren Mitchell, Ron Moody, David Warner, Patrick Macnee, Malcolm Macdowell (and this is, of course, just the men) be considered good employable prospects today? Might even an Albert Finney have had a struggle to make it?

I think the industry was undoubtedly a different place in years gone by. My theory is that, not least, the prevalence of interest in screen acting that has built up in recent years - necessarily as cinema, TV, music video and the Internet have successively become ever more important in our lives - has drastically changed casting notions. They seem to have 'Americanised' in accordance with the canons of good screen acting practice (with a consequent dismissal of the more 'ordinary' and the individual), and what is also true is that, in screen terms, casting must be necessarily more specific in the first place. The sense in which someone who is not, perhaps, 'ideal' looking can still portray a great hero on stage - where there is distance from the audience, and a continued expectation that disbelief may need to be suspended - does not exist on screen. Hollywood standards have certainly always demanded that, say, figures known historically to have been quite unremarkable looking are shown to be shining demi gods. This appears to be seeping wholesale into our mainstream cinema and TV industries - e.g. Rhys Myers's casting as Henry VIII in the Tudors'. And this is just one example of how these influences are shaping current casting policies.

I'm sorry if that wasn't a funny post, but I think it contains some thoughtful points. It's to me a great pity that the sorts of opportunities open to character actors in past generations appear to be drying up now. And I regret it.


  • 15 years ago
  • 22
Lee Ravitz
Actor

Actually, looking back through those replies, I think (rather more funnily!) Alan was spot on! Though I don't have much time for Robin Askwith, anyway, what a loss it would have been not to have seen the work of Lee van Cleef, or Charles Hawtrey (not to mention Sid James) or PETER LORRE (one of the best actors of his generation!!!!). That's my point exactly.

I might have also said: there seems to be very little market for the serious actor who is also a consummate character performer these days...most of our 'character' slots in TV and film, you'll notice, are these days taken by stands up and sketch comedians...sometimes brilliantly, more often to the detriment of the product. Maybe that's a by product of the fact that the most 'interesting' types are no longer being allowed to succeed in mainstream acting careers, as well...I am always surprised by the fact that so many character comedians are revealed to have studied straight acting in a previous life...Catherine Tate, the League of Gentlemen, Rob Brydon, Matt Lucas, the list goes on. There is definitely something up with the industry these days!!


  • 15 years ago
  • 23
Hugh Osborne
Actor

Actually, I've just thought of something: Kelly Brook in 'Fat Pig'. Okay. I was wrong. It's a fair cop.


  • 15 years ago
  • 24
User Deleted
This profile has been archived

Excellent Lee !


  • 15 years ago
  • 25
User Deleted
This profile has been archived

Charles Laughton - Genius.


  • 15 years ago
  • 26

David Attenborough Tony Hancock (I love him to bits), Hattie Jacques, Maybe even Sean Connery now that Daniel Craig is on the scene - there's a contentious idea !!


  • 15 years ago
  • 27
Leila Reid
Actor

lee I have a question have you ever writtern a one paragraph post? I totally agree though in fact when I doing my diploma in acting my Shakespeare teacher said that in todays market if you like she wouldn't have got in to drama school. I think it is hard to say, I think it would depend on how much drive and determination they had!


  • 15 years ago
  • 28

I love it when people read only half a question and get all het up...

I shall clarify the question: this is not an opportunity to slag off other actors (lord knows there's enough of that) but a way of looking at the industry- for example our dear David Jason is an icon of mine, however without the rep that made him into the actor he is- how would he have got through nowadays?

Also, don't just put a name up! It's a discussion, you need to say why.


  • 15 years ago
  • 29

Oh, I'm going to say Elizabeth Barry- face like the backend of a bus, terrific actress, beloved by the whole country (and the king).

Of course things have moved on a bit since the seventeenth century, but still.


  • 15 years ago
  • 30
James Stuart
Actor

Wow! lots of really interesting comments on this discussion...I think that James Stewart MAY have struggled in this day..great name (even though his surname is spelt wrong!)and I love a lot of his work, I just think he may have struggled as there is not really enough work out there that suits his style...


  • 15 years ago
  • 31
James Stuart
Actor

Also Van Damme, Lundgren and the like may not have made it either..the "action" hero seems to have evolved.


  • 15 years ago
  • 32

maybe everybody should concentrate on making it now , not waste time and energy chatting who would and who wouldn't . THere are jobs out there waiting to be cast!!!

see you at the awards ceremony ! x


  • 15 years ago
  • 33

But my point is-how?

How does the industry work now? And now that it's so different we can't model ourselves on past successes, where do we look for inspiration?


  • 15 years ago
  • 34
Lee Ravitz
Actor

To Leila: Sometimes, if rarely, have I written a one paragraph post. This'll have to do. (P.S. It's a cheat).


  • 15 years ago
  • 35

I would have to throw in my two cents worth and say acting, like art, is in the "eye of the beholder" sometimes, especially when it comes to movies ... taking for example the comment about Brad Pitt and Keanu Reeves, I thoroughly enjoy both their movies for different reasons and although they may not be "one of the greats" in some opinions - it's all about what appeals to the individual audience member and telling the story.
If some people find them entertaining, then surely they are doing their job well?
To try and answer the question - I think some of the old greats could definitely squeeze through these days, even though the industry is constantly changing, there is always some room for true talent and it will come full circle.
One day we will get back to the good ol' days before reality celebrity took over. The public will get sick of it, and we will all return to the theatre!! - maybe wishful thinking there, but it ebbs and flows, like anything else.


  • 15 years ago
  • 36

I have to say Christine, in Sean's defence that although Daniel is a fab Bond, my heart will always belong to Sean!!

I know this has nothing to do with either of them making it but hey.


  • 15 years ago
  • 37

Rep was a great way back then for people to get noticed through hard work and professionalism- such a shame that it rarely works that way now.
But before we all get dewey eyed about the past- you only have to watch "The Dresser" to see that it wasn't perfect! Fantastic film by the way that I would recommend anyone who hasn't seen it to get hold of it!


  • 15 years ago
  • 38
Lee Ravitz
Actor

In reply to that, perhaps 'individual' was the wrong choice of words. I absolutely agree that Method training emphasises building the character from the interior, on the basis of the moment to moment emotional impulses of the actor concerned - and, moreover, that it categorically rails against the idea of playing to 'type' - the argument would always be that a cop, a banker, a lawyer etc. should not be played according to preconceived notions of what each of those professions entailed - but according to what the actor portraying the characters happens to relate to. Thus, they become the cop, banker etc. that they, and they alone, represent. I agree that the traditional attitude in this country was to build the character on the basis of much more 'stock' traits - and that all this may be related to the relative influence that Stanislavskian teaching had over the respective countries.

BUT the point of my post was not primarily about the psychology of the actor - it was about the aesthetics of an actor's casting. And I think it is undeniable that Hollywood, at least, has *always* emphasised the unrealistically beautiful at the expense of the ordinary. It has been doing this since the days before movies had sound - witness the careers of Valentino, Lillian Gish, etc. etc. US television seems to have moved ever more strongly towards adhering to Hollywood values - whereas in the 50's, you might have got away with a Phil Silvers or Jackie Gleason fronting massively successful programmes, one has only to look at the type of imports we now see regularly to realise how rare a front man as, say, James Gandolfini actually is (Friends, Sex and the City, ER, Lost etc. etc. etc. - are all dominated by casts of preternaturally pretty people). And now British TV and Cinema, in particular, long a bastion *against* this type of aesthetically 'pleasing' casting for its own sake are beginning to crumble under the impetus of these Hollywood values. In a sense, we used to be a lot less 'demanding' that our heroes had perfect hair, teeth, figures, and although that may be only one side of the story, I'm sure a few 'interesting looking' actors of the past might have found it much harder to get breaks today, because regardless of talent, they wouldn't have made the 'looks' grade. Needless to say, I think this is an appalling criteria to judge ability on - though I appreciate that casting the best looking is one way of telling an audience that somebody is meant to be a hero.


  • 15 years ago
  • 39

So how come there are so many gorgeous people on here that can't get a job??


  • 15 years ago
  • 40
You must login as a candidate to participate in the forum.
Please note: Messages written in the forum do not represent the views of The Mandy Network, nor have they been vetted by The Mandy Network staff. If you read something which you believe to be offensive or defamatory, please contact us and we will take the appropriate action.