I feel I must comment on the front of people asking for crew and kit for free
especially soliciting over the phone to complete strangers.
If you want to make a film
save up, borrow, rob a drug store,get a grant till you can afford it.
Dont devalue peoples skills
I also have a bone with people who work for at least less than at least NMW
I realise people need experience however trainees are paid in this industry by reputable filmakers and HOD's
How can you value yourself if you dont get at least basically compensated for
your hard won skills and craft
Both the filmmakers and crew who participate in this are undermining the industry
James I think you are right as education
is the key especially in the colleges
I bring up the NMW allegedly law of the land .
Everyone except work experience should be paid this on a shoot.
I really do agree with most of the opinions that have been made in this thread. Working for free is something that virtually all freelancers have to do to a) get some real world experience that cannot be taught in an educational setting and b) to get your name on a few projects for showreel material.
It is true that sometimes a job will come up that is paying back-end and may lead to paid work, and as someone else said, you can generally tell whether it is worth while. Again i think it is easy to forget what it is like when you are just starting out.
The rule that i stick to that, in my opinion, does not de-value peoples services and skills is basically that if the film or film makers are making money then you should make money, but if the film is not making any money then it can be done for free!
I'm with a lot of you guys. I'm more than happy to work for free (for now) but it seems that in itself is rather difficult.
I don't have that much work experience myself, however, I have been quite lucky in that I was able to get a decent paid editing assistant job for a bit. After that, job/work experience opportunities have been pretty scarce..
I've just tried to remain as positive as I possibly can be and suggest others do the same. I might even try getting work in another country just to broaden my horizons.
Oliver , I have worked with you before
and respect your work and opinion
I would have to disagree about cold calling for freebies especially when asked to provide equipment
I have hit a nerve here There have been almost a thousand hits on this topic and the vast majority( those who have responded) agree with my point
Best Regards
Ray
Thanks for the response, what did we work together on?
And you've created quite a debate :)
and as you said it seems most people agree with the basic idea.
I think the issue is not people looking for crew to work for free but crew who are well passed 'training' and keep working for free or keep lowering their wages in order to work.
Due to the fact that no one abides by a standard wage setting for the industry (esp on lower budget productions) it means that people that take lower wages set a standard which people at the top know they can use.
For example if the job is advertised for a very low rate, there will still be lots of applicants.
So the problem is why pay more when you don't have to.
If there was a set minimum rate it would at least set a basic guideline for everyone to work to.
Free work should always be offered and if people chose to except then that is up to them, if you don't want to apply don't its very simple
Spielberg would never ask anyone to work for free certainly not anyone he didnt know well
My issue is the cold callers who dont know you calling and asking especially to provide free kit
I find it ironic that the vast majority of 'jobs' on fatvpro are lo/no pay and at best expense only...yet are looking for someone with kit...there is nothing pro about being an unbudgeted production...putting fanciful terms like internship or its good for your portfolio is tripe...if you have no budget and its a bunch of 'interns' just how is that an internship.the whole process undermines the industry.
I have to agree mostly with Ray. I have spent thousands of pounds on university education to give me the skills to shoot and edit films. I have also spent a lot of money on equipment. I am about to buy a full editing suite. Why the hell should I spend all that time, effort, and money to build up my skills and knowledge base, only for someone to then expect me to give it to them for nothing?
I am reminded of an interesting analogy a Cameraman friend made on the subject of working for free. He said, would you contact a Conservatory maker and say, I want you to build a conservatory on to the back of my house. I can't afford to pay you but it is a really good concept...
ooh yeah i LOVE this debate.
im a cinematographer for a few years now, been do brighton film school and attended new york film academy as well.
i own a moviecam compact with all extras you need (zeiss primes lenses, mattebox, follow focus etc..)
i am not only have been asked to work for free, some of these even expected to provide the filmstock and of course i would pay for developing and telecine.
"yeah sure we pay you" and "i promise you will be paid as soon as..." i have been told lies and i heard excauses over and over again.
do they think i went to filmschool for free? and yet i offer ma knowledge and my experience for free?
i started to ask cash upfront. all expenses have to be paid and 1/3 for my work. and without a contract signed i dont even get out of my bed. simple as that.
Right on Randy Im with you on the cash
up front or at least a deposit
If people want discounts then theres none of this 30 day stuff( except to big entities
Any how EU Law states for sole traders its 7 days
After 30 you can charge penalties and interest
I think that there is a place for both paid and unpaid work. It all depends upon you level of skill / experience and who is asking you to do the job.
If the job comes form an established production house, a project with a budget then yes you need to be getting paid. A small time production done by friends, then perhaps not.
Legally speaking, you MUST be paid for your work. If you are not then you can at a later time raise an action in court to be compensated for that work. ALthough this really on has any possibility of paying out if the work project went on to great commercial success.
My point is that by not paying for the work done the production runs the risk of not owning your work and thus exposing themselves to legal action later. So next time some asks you to work for free explain to them that if they don't pay you, they will not own the work, that will change their minds very quickly.
I have read with interest these post that seem to be of last year. After the paralympic opening ceremony I fell flat on my face, the "dream" was dreamt and the performance was over, I was a lost soul.
I am 56 years old and have been unemployed for over 2 years. I have taken various roles over the last 12 months, as an extra where people need people to complete their film.
I have sat here for this length of time and decided that the Unemployment Office is a total waste of time and i was getting no where for an interview. The longer time has gone on, the less experience I have had. The answer when I get rejections was that people in work have more experience than me, that is my point, they have a job and I have not because of them.
I have found that my CV has grown from me not wanting to waste the rest of my working life trying to please others. As a consequence I secured an expenses only job as a Location Manager. Yes, it is only expenses but my CV and my knowledge will grow.
If it is wrong to ask for free acting extra's, then no one would get the experience, and we would be without the exceptional talent that is out there.
I have really enjoyed my experiences, I have a lot of patience and willing to sit around for a day to get that experience and another notch on my Cv for the day when I will "drop" into the perfect job.
What I cannot understand is the way agencies get you on their books. I do not need anyone to organise me or my life, I will do as I please and act where I want without feeling I owe the Agent anything.
Even the work experience as Ray say's is supported by this Government. The employer get's the benefit of free workers for a couple of weeks, the employee does not have a guaranteed job at the end of it.
This is only my opinion but something I think holds merit.
The fact of the matter is that you DON'T have to work for free to establish a career in the film industry.
I have of course worked for free at times, but only ever to assist a friend/colleague who might be working on a personal project.
My film career began as a runner, paid, quite rightly, before I moved departments to pursue the avenue I was really interested in, and began life in the camera dept as a trainee.
All productions, from major Features and high-end TV dramas right down to Hollyoaks employ trainees, who are there to learn and gain experience enough to make the step onto the next rung of the ladder, in most departments. All of them are paid.
The only exception to this that I have ever witnessed, are student work placements, which I have no problem with, as they are placed with us as part of their course.
By all means help your friends with any personal projects they might have going on, but do not assume that working for free is a necessity.
I would just like to add that if it weren't for me giving my services for free, I wouldn't have any jobs. My skill is a very specific skill and it's hard to apply for big corporations without going through their own "trainee scheme" and honestly, unless you're big in the industry you're not gonna be selected to work on films just like that.
I work for free so I can gain the experience to eventually be able to be paid for my work.
But regardless of that, I love doing what I do and so I don't really mind if I'm paid or not right now... I just enjoy doing the job.
I have read through this forum debate, and can see the good points and the bad points in it. I am relatively new to the industry, and free work is my only means to get experience. so yes im degrading myself. But I aint going to get a job with out the experience, and I cannot get the experience without a job, catch 22
i think the problem here lies not with the fact of free work. But more the fact of people contacting professionals to work for free out of the blue.
if i wanted someone to work with me for free, i wouldn't go to them, id let them come to me. place the ad and wait. not the other way around. I wouldn't expect peter Jackson, or Spielberg to make a film for free.
Actors are fed up of being told - 'well the crew are doing it for free ' too . Let all decide that the basic NMW IS NOT ENOUGH and aim higher ! Say no and see if they get back to you - they often do !
I believe it's utterly unfair to ask for people with their own kit to work for free. Anyone should be paid at least the minimum wage. But I completely disagree with paying people who have low to no notions about the filmmaking process but are willing to learn on the set i.e. runners, assistants etc.
On the other hand you might get a terrible producer and ruin your film by bringing in crew which lacks craft and skill but they are getting paid.
If you are entry level indeed you have no options but to do a few unpaid jobs. Chances to get notice after finishing film school are low unless you are the best at what you study.
With actors is even worse, as most of them do theatre and in order to get a chance to step into film they will do a lot of unpaid work for showreel only.
The biggest problem in my opinion is that everyone who owns a DSLR thinks is a filmmaker although shoots on auto and lacks basic understanding of filmmaking process hence the over-crowding amount of bad films in the UK. As a normal consequence proper filmmakers are losing visibility and eventually jobs.
It is indeed a matter of education and respect for this profession .
Don't even get me started on the smug attitude of a new graduates who thinks they know everything and no one can bring creativity and artistic value to the production but themselves. I look sometimes at people in their 50's who have spent a lifetime on the set and seen it all, and work for this ''misunderstood geniuses'' and I feel embarrass for them, as most of them are there to do a favour to someone not to get humiliated by some arrogance.
No one said filmmaking is an easy job, but you can skip the pre-production and the budgeting just because you have no budget. Make one. There is plenty of info online and in film schools on how to budget your film.
As a conclusion Pay the HOD's and the Key Members of the crew.
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